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Form 5500-SUP


buckaroo

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Sounds as if someone out there was thinking, "There must be some more crap we haven't thought to ask for."

The zany part is you don't/can't file this until after the Efast2 submission a la Item Part I.B. What is so ex-post facto about the information on form that it couldn't have been included with the 5500 or related schedules? It's interesting that a lot of the requested information (e.g., coverage test) used to be on the 5500.

The material provided and the opinions expressed in this post are for general informational purposes only and should not be used or relied upon as the basis for any action or inaction. You should obtain appropriate tax, legal, or other professional advice.

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Maybe they are contemplating sending to a random sampling of 401(k) plans like the 401(k) survey project they had?

I agree it seemed odd that it had an ack file, you'd think they'd just make it an additional schedule that 401(k) plans file with the 5500.

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Looks like the result of bureaucratic infighting. Note that at the top left of the form, it is Treasury only, not a joint return with EBSA like the 5500. DOL dropped Sch T and other compliance info. IRS says OK we'll just require our own filing!

I carry stuff uphill for others who get all the glory.

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so when is this form suppose to be due? the same time as the 5500?

item B on the form: EFAST2 acknowledgement

so that means this can't be electronic because you don't know that until after you file the 5500.

so you file that on 10/15.

now what?????????

oh, plus you have to have the form signed by the employer.

this is begging for problems

if they expect all that by 10/15 then I vote the form be called

5500-StUPid

or 5500-SUCK :D

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so lets suppose your plan is an 8% enhanced match (or any other possibility)

question 4b How does the plan pass nondiscrim?

I don't see the check box

well, for ADP it is safe harbor, but for ACP I use the ACP test

question 4c - what happens if you use ADP prior year testing and ACP current year testing (because you have a discretionary match) [no, I don't have any with different testing methods, but you could]

question 6a Has the plan been timely amended for all required changes?

what is this, a trick question? if you answer 'No' you might as well send it in on florescent paper

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Is this new question about whether a plan was "timely amended" much different than the Form 5500 schedules' queries that ask about a failure to have fidelity-bond insurance, a theft loss, or a nonexempt prohibited transaction?

Peter Gulia PC

Fiduciary Guidance Counsel

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

215-732-1552

Peter@FiduciaryGuidanceCounsel.com

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I'm probably in the minority but I'm actually happy to see this. There have to be at least a few plans/sponsors out there who will say "what's this about non-discrimination testing?" Similar Q's used to be asked; I'm looking at a 1996 return, and it has a question about whether compensation was limited, and others about amendments.

From a compliance standpoint, the current returns are of limited use, at best. I guess the DOL got their stuff in there, and I know that this new form has something to do with IRS/DOL/SSA working together and not being able to ask certain questions (although I can't begin to understand the bureaucratic reasons behind it).

Sure, it will be a pain, and they will make it more of a pain than it needs to be, but it should be a minor nuisance for those of us whose purpose in life is to make sure those questions can be answered properly.

Ed Snyder

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Here's my problem - that increases to 3 the number of filings required each year. Our clients are going to go mental.

And unlike the SSA which was a mere transmittal of objective data, this one I will need to have the client actually sign and return to me before I transmit (on the SSA, I simply trust the client to sign the hard-copy). I would not be comfortable transmitting data for whether or not the client has executed the plan amendments which I have sent to him or her.

Oh, and how about a mulptiple employer plan? That should fit in beautifully for this filing.

Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA

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  • 2 weeks later...

Does at least look like the IRS will have these questions incorporated in the 5500/5500-SF (hopefully anyways) looking at language on the IRS page showing the 5500-SUP

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Draft-Paper-Form-5500-SUP-for-Plan-Year-2015

From the page: "The IRS anticipates that the Form 5500-SUP will contain the same IRS compliance questions that the IRS intends to add to the Form 5500 and the Form 5500-SF. The Form 5500-SUP will give filers who are not required to file electronically the option to answer these questions on paper."

From a real life scenario though, would have to really have a reason to not put these on the 5500 though since the first thing on the 5500-SUP is the EFAST ACK code (which means you would have to e-file, then prepare the 5500-SUP, get to the client for signature, and then mail to the IRS - good luck with that on October 14th).

As an aside though, still trying to figure out how many plan sponsors (not TPAs) file over 250 5500 filings annually?

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I actual sent a few comments, including the point you made about having to put the ACK code and get the signature all by the filing deadline.

There were a few other points - what if plan satisfies ADP safe harbor but not ACP safe harbor

while I don't have any, it is possible to have prior testing for ADP and current for ACP (I could see doing this if the plan has a discretionary match)

while I didn't raise the issue, remember with the schedule T at one tome there was a space for coverage but only one line, and then they modified it so you would put down how plan passes coverage for 401k, 401m and nonelective. I imagine they will need to do the same thing again.

but that is good news that we will be able to file the thing electronically.

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Does at least look like the IRS will have these questions incorporated in the 5500/5500-SF (hopefully anyways) looking at language on the IRS page showing the 5500-SUP

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Draft-Paper-Form-5500-SUP-for-Plan-Year-2015

From the page: "The IRS anticipates that the Form 5500-SUP will contain the same IRS compliance questions that the IRS intends to add to the Form 5500 and the Form 5500-SF. The Form 5500-SUP will give filers who are not required to file electronically the option to answer these questions on paper."

From a real life scenario though, would have to really have a reason to not put these on the 5500 though since the first thing on the 5500-SUP is the EFAST ACK code (which means you would have to e-file, then prepare the 5500-SUP, get to the client for signature, and then mail to the IRS - good luck with that on October 14th).

As an aside though, still trying to figure out how many plan sponsors (not TPAs) file over 250 5500 filings annually?

I must be missing something. If the 5500-SUP is for those filers who are not required to file electronically, how does that filer get an EFAST ACK code?

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http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/epn_2014_18.pdf

IRS newsletter clarified that the SUP is only for people not already required to file electronically. The compliance questions will be added to the 5500-SF. So at least we are not going to be required to file two separate forms.

PS, the 250 threshold counts each w-2/1099 as a separate return.

Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA

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