Guest Moira Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 a local church is being told by an auditor that they are required to have a plan document. The church is not a client of mine but is merely asking for some information so I'm working off of some assumptions. We believe the plan is a 403(b)(7) with mutual funds not a 403(b)(9), however there is an employer contribution. Now, does that mean the 403(b) is required to have a written plan document (prototype-ish for example) or even with the employer contribution, will agreements with the provider suffice for a 403(b)(7) "written plan document"? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLGeer Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 a local church is being told by an auditor that they are required to have a plan document. The church is not a client of mine but is merely asking for some information so I'm working off of some assumptions. We believe the plan is a 403(b)(7) with mutual funds not a 403(b)(9), however there is an employer contribution. Now, does that mean the 403(b) is required to have a written plan document (prototype-ish for example) or even with the employer contribution, will agreements with the provider suffice for a 403(b)(7) "written plan document"? Thanks in advance. It's highly unlikely that vendor documents will comply. Two examples. First, the custodial accounts will limit contributions to each account, but probably will not take into account contributions to other permitted investments. Second example, they almost certainly will not coordinate as to loan limitations or on hardship amounts. I prefer to think of the 403(b) document as a wraparound plan document. This structure addresses plan-level issues in the plan document and then simultaneously incorporates and subordinates the vendor contracts. You should seriously consider a retirement income account. The underlying assets are still held in custody somewhere, but in an ordinary brokerage account. The investments are not limited to annuities and mutual funds. Last, the additional custodial account limitations on distributions do not apply. Tom Geer Thomas L. Geer, J.D., LL.M. Benefit Plan Solutions Blog: http://401k-403b-457-plansblog.blogspot.com/ Email: geertom@gmail.com Phone & Fax: (888) 315-6720 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moira Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 a local church is being told by an auditor that they are required to have a plan document. The church is not a client of mine but is merely asking for some information so I'm working off of some assumptions. We believe the plan is a 403(b)(7) with mutual funds not a 403(b)(9), however there is an employer contribution. Now, does that mean the 403(b) is required to have a written plan document (prototype-ish for example) or even with the employer contribution, will agreements with the provider suffice for a 403(b)(7) "written plan document"? Thanks in advance. It's highly unlikely that vendor documents will comply. Two examples. First, the custodial accounts will limit contributions to each account, but probably will not take into account contributions to other permitted investments. Second example, they almost certainly will not coordinate as to loan limitations or on hardship amounts. I prefer to think of the 403(b) document as a wraparound plan document. This structure addresses plan-level issues in the plan document and then simultaneously incorporates and subordinates the vendor contracts. You should seriously consider a retirement income account. The underlying assets are still held in custody somewhere, but in an ordinary brokerage account. The investments are not limited to annuities and mutual funds. Last, the additional custodial account limitations on distributions do not apply. Tom Geer Thanks for your comments. Given that this plan actually is not my client and I'm just trying to work within the framework of what I know, I am really not in a position to recommend they use a retirement income account. I do, however, need to be sure I am correct in my response to their question. Would I be correct in saying that technically they are not required to have a "wraparound" plan document as you call it (I like that description by the way) but perhaps they would be advised to do so? Or would it be the case that, because of the employer contributions, are they automatically required to have such a wraparound-type document? I have not been as successful as I had hoped in getting the specific answer out of any of the legalese I have tried to read in the regulations themselves. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLGeer Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 First, I need to apologize. I reacted and responded as of this were a more common situation presenting this issue. Given the existence of employer contributions, they need a 403(b) document, to wrap around the funding vehicles and to define the employer contribution rules and limit their amounts within 403(b). This is not a matter of options, it's required. Thomas L. Geer, J.D., LL.M. Benefit Plan Solutions Blog: http://401k-403b-457-plansblog.blogspot.com/ Email: geertom@gmail.com Phone & Fax: (888) 315-6720 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moira Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 First, I need to apologize. I reacted and responded as of this were a more common situation presenting this issue. Given the existence of employer contributions, they need a 403(b) document, to wrap around the funding vehicles and to define the employer contribution rules and limit their amounts within 403(b). This is not a matter of options, it's required. No problem at all, I appreciate your help. This seems logical to me but in my years around the employee benefit world the one thing I have learned with certainty is that I do not think like regulators do. What seems logical to me is not normally what is the rule! Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Feldt ERPA CPC QPA Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 Even still, even with employer contributions and a document, they can still be considered a non-ERISA church plan, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLGeer Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 Even still, even with employer contributions and a document, they can still be considered a non-ERISA church plan, right? Yep. Thomas L. Geer, J.D., LL.M. Benefit Plan Solutions Blog: http://401k-403b-457-plansblog.blogspot.com/ Email: geertom@gmail.com Phone & Fax: (888) 315-6720 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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