austin3515 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Every now and again we talk about going paperless. My issue has always been that when reviewing people's work, printing it out on paper has OFTEN manifested errors that I never would have caught in a paperless environment. Take for example reviewing HCE's. I have last year's census on my desk and the ADP test on my desk. I check back and forth, running fingers from person to person, or perhaps using roller going down a page, putting checkmarks on those I have reviewed, to ensure that everyone on both lists is accounted for. How is that possible in a paperless environment? Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadgetfreak Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Multiple monitors and Excel vLookup are some of the "more modern" ways of doing what you describe. I am not saying they are better mind you. A lot of it is a generational thing but there are a lot of positives as well. ETA Consulting LLC 1 ERPA, QPA, QKA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG5150 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Print them out! hr for me 1 QKA, QPA, CPC, ERPATwo wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SearchLight Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I started out in a paper-heavy small TPA, but now that I'm with a much larger firm I've had to go to paperless simply because the volume's too high to make doing everything on paper feasible. I also end up reviewing work for others in offices on the other side of the country from me, so handwritten comments on the work start to become burdensome when I then have to type them up anyway to send them back. My paper-loving office mates sometimes laugh at my e-vangelism, but it's been a major boost to my efficiency once I got past the initial learning curve. The biggest hurdle I see in adopting a paperless approach is a lack of trust in software to do what it's good at, like mathematical calculations, comparisons, and avoiding duplicative data entry. Teaching myself formulas in Excel helped me understand that a well-written formula really does do what you expect it to do. Having the confidence that you really can rely on the computer to calculate something correctly frees up time to think about those aspects of our work that require a human to think about them. Excel can't interpret a document provision or explain to a client why Mr. Bigwig is a getting a refund, but it's actually pretty darn good applying simple rules to participant data quickly and accurately. The more I go paperless, the more I like it. And it means I spend a whole lot less time swearing in front of a jammed printer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david rigby Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 For many, it's difficult and tiring to read everything on a monitor. Errors and/or shortcuts can be the result. hr for me 1 I'm a retirement actuary. Nothing about my comments is intended or should be construed as investment, tax, legal or accounting advice. Occasionally, but not all the time, it might be reasonable to interpret my comments as actuarial or consulting advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESOP Guy Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I work for a firm that has over 50% of its employees working from home across the country. We are paperless. I agree with the comment that it is a matter of learning to trust computers doing what they do well. HCE determinations should be automated. All you need to know is the following 1) was the prior year's data correct 2) is the ownership and family relationship coded up correctly. An automated review can tell you #1. Family will require a manual look most likely but in all but the largest family fact sets I find doing it on screen is not too bad. Same for a number of other functions. It has been years since someone has found a material error in our automated 5500 counts program. Any more that is pretty much all I check when I am reviewing HCE determinations. If it isn't a garbage in garbage out issue the results are correct. I also agree I have learned to love vlookups and other Excel tools to allow me to quickly filter data to find what I need. Lastly, I quickly learned how to write comments in pdfs. So as I review the results I leave my comments in the pdf draft of what would go to the client. As a side benefit people tell me they have the least problem with my comments in terms of not being able to read bad hand writing as my comments are one of the few not hand written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMK Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I like paper for several reasons, including those Austin mentioned. I also like some features of electronic documents, and I'm (slowly) updating my generational deficiencies at using e-files and reading on a monitor. My concern with paperless is whether I (or my successor) will be able to read and print the files in 15 or 20 years, when some auditor wants to see a boatload of documents from past years, or someone who resigned young thinks they have a benefit coming now that their are old. I'm not sure current software can read some files from 15 years ago, and I don't see a trend that ensures that new software can always read the historical documents. So, if I think it may be needed or important down the road, I print it and put it in a file cabinet. And at other times, when I'm checking things off a list or table and comparing, I usually do it on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austin3515 Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 First of all, there is no bigger proponent of vlookup than me. I should be paid a commission for how I tout vlookup. And lest you get the impression that I am technology averse, I can assure you that we've embraced technology (whether through Access databases, custom crystal reports, etc) to the extent that promotes efficiency and accuracy, and is not a hindrance to them. That is the guide I rely on. And ESOP Guy, it is the very moment you stop checking that you end up regretting it. And formula errors do happen. I use a "trust but verify" approach (Reagan, right?) Automate through vlookup, but then spend a moment making sure the vlookup worked correctly (usually can be done in Excel). Here is my dilemma. It seems to me that some sort of occupational consulting group would have actually sat down and asked the question: Are people able to achieve the same levels of accuracy and review on a monitor as opposed to paper? The latter affords the opportunity to write a quick note, document checks back and forth. It seems to me that with everyone jumping on board the USS Paperless someone would have done this "obvious" analysis. Example. I can't tell you how many times I've writte a letter in word, read it through 10 times over, agonized over every word, print it out, and realize that I forgot to change the client's name under "Dear Steve" (having only changed the address). That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It hits you in the face on paper. K2retire 1 Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SearchLight Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The viability of paperless review definitely depends on whether or not the basic structure of it works for the way you think. Paperless review works best if you tend to be systematic in your approach (i.e., you always check A first, then B, then C) and like to review the same sort of thing in the same sort of way each time. It does not work as well if you're more of a holistic thinker who takes in several elements at once and then assembles them mentally like a jigsaw puzzle. But really, the only way to know if it works for you is to try it and stick with it for a good length of time (at least 6 months, I'd say). You don't have to apply it to every process, or every part of every process, but pick one or two tasks where you're committed to a paperless approach, map out in advance how you propose to do it, and apply it every time. If you're concerned about paperless review being faulty at first, you can pick a low-risk process or supplement with a slimmed-down paper review until you feel like you've got a good paperless system going. At the end of the 6 months, you can assess and see if you saw the improvement you wanted, or even if there were unexpected benefits (like saving more time than you thought). It's always OK to take it a little at a time rather than leaping in full force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austin3515 Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 Paperless review works best if you tend to be systematic in your approach (i.e., you always check A first, then B, then C) and like to review the same sort of thing in the same sort of way each time. It does not work as well if you're more of a holistic thinker who takes in several elements at once and then assembles them mentally like a jigsaw puzzle. I'm definitely more on the systematic side (I cant imagine not looking at the document first, then eligibility, then the ADP test, for example). I'm still not convinced that it would be better for me! Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hojo Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I know people have said this already, but you can create checkmark stamps in adobe and other programs to check you work as you review on screen. It's actually very simple. Instead of printing it out, print it to pdf and then add your checks and comments and then pass on. This way, all of you checks are saved and noted before anything moves on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkharvey Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Along this same topic, what about plan documents? I am a "paper" person, but my boss just asked me why he needs to keep them in paper. I need arguments "for" keeping them. What are your thoughts? What do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoJo Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 jkharvey: The reason I prefer paper copies is that a plan document is extremely interconnected. You read section 4.1 and it refers to a definition is Article 2, and also has a reference to the limits contained in Article 6, which references different definitions in Article 2 and also deals with the various employee contribution sources defined in Article 3.... Until and unless someone creates a completely "hyperlinked" e-document (and it will never happen), I can get to the relevant sections a lot faster in a paper document than I can in an e-document - and even if I get to the appropriate cross-referenced section in an e-document, then I have to get BACK to the section I was at in the first place (which in a paper document, is where I put an extra finger at for quick "flip back") but requires a search of a lengthy scroll to get to in a pdf version of the same document. It's all about time and eficiency - and while there is a cost to having paper in the office, it's a heck of a lot less than my hourly rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hojo Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 jkharvey: The reason I prefer paper copies is that a plan document is extremely interconnected. You read section 4.1 and it refers to a definition is Article 2, and also has a reference to the limits contained in Article 6, which references different definitions in Article 2 and also deals with the various employee contribution sources defined in Article 3.... Until and unless someone creates a completely "hyperlinked" e-document (and it will never happen), I can get to the relevant sections a lot faster in a paper document than I can in an e-document - and even if I get to the appropriate cross-referenced section in an e-document, then I have to get BACK to the section I was at in the first place (which in a paper document, is where I put an extra finger at for quick "flip back") but requires a search of a lengthy scroll to get to in a pdf version of the same document. It's all about time and eficiency - and while there is a cost to having paper in the office, it's a heck of a lot less than my hourly rate. There are actually very quick page tabs and excellent search features in most pdf readers. I find it much faster to quick search Section 6.1 to get to that page then flipping through a paper document. Additionally, i can find all references to a specific section as needed or flag the page I'm reading to come back to it. A hyperlinked document would be fantastic, but is far from necessary to do what you're looking to do here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoJo Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 "There are actually very quick page tabs and excellent search features in most pdf readers. I find it much faster to quick search Section 6.1 to get to that page then flipping through a paper document." Oh I have one of the most sophisticated pdf readers/processors on the market (Nuance Power PDF PROFESSIONAL version) and it has a lot of those features. I use them when I have no hard-copy (and am not going to print a 150 page document for a "quick read") - but still find the paper flipping back and forth to be far faster for looking up specific sections. Another reason I like paper is that I generally see more information on a page than fits on a screen (without rotating the screen to "portrait" - which my monitor will do, but it mean moving a ton and a half of stuff around the screen to do so). Add to that the "portability" of paper (I have been known to read plan documents sitting on a lawn chair at a the local swimming hole - where I wouldn't take a laptop, nor could I read it in the sun if I did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpod Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Why not just print when you want to read the old fashioned way? I know it's not cheap, but it has to be cheaper than maintaining paper files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMK Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 For me, it's a matter of how long you need to be able to present a readable (and probably printable) copy of the document. If a document may be needed 30 years from now, it's on paper in a file. If I won't need it a year from now, it's in an electronic file. In between, I have to decide if the software will be available to read the e-file 10 or 15 or however many years from now when I (or someone) might be required to produce it. I can search for keywords in an electronic file faster than paging through a document, but then, having found the references, I sometimes prefer to work with the paper copy. Many, many "saved" e-mails over the years were handy to have on file, but now are lost forever. Print what you need to (for various reasons) and e-file the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Preston Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Why did you lose the saved e-mails? Hard disk crash without backup? Change in e-mail program with conscious decision to abandon existing e-mail store? Hillary Clinton is your e-mail tech advisor? Other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMK Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 New and improved software that can't read old e-mail files. Maybe I should have spent the time to figure out how to connect to those older files, but I didn't. In any case, that part's OK. I print out the e-mails I need to save. My concern is about being able to read formatted word processor and scanned document files years from now. If you have a way to ensure that e-files will be readable during the period you may need to produce them, e-filing is great. I simply see it as an issue for which you need to have a plan when you consider going paperless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Preston Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I can't imagine .pdf files *NOT* being usable for years and years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movedon Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Why wouldn't pdfs be usable for years and years to come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david rigby Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 It's possible Mike means the files won't be needed, rather than won't be readable. IMHO, it is very likely pdf documents will be readable for decades to come. I'm a retirement actuary. Nothing about my comments is intended or should be construed as investment, tax, legal or accounting advice. Occasionally, but not all the time, it might be reasonable to interpret my comments as actuarial or consulting advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Poje Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 just like my 8-track tapes and records are ....oh, ok maybe that goes back too far ok, my 5 1/4 inch floppy...er 3 1/2 inch floppy...errrrrrrrr vhs tape.... K2retire and MoJo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movedon Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 It's very unlikely that a ubiquitous file type will ever be unreadable - assuming we continue to have electricity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austin3515 Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 Tom, there is a big difference here and that is that the media today is far more portable than your old 8 track. So for that reason, pdf's will either exist in their current form, or have some form of a conversion to the newest fad that admittedly might take years and years. But then again, perhaps it will take the course of bitmap files. Most pictures are jpegs, but I can still open a file called Monchrome Bitmap, and I'm willing to bet some of those files were originally stored 5.25 floppies! Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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