dmb Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 For DC plan deductible limit, in a plan with a last day requirement, does eligible compensation include compensation of participant who terminated before the end of the plan year? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETA Consulting LLC Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 No, unless it has a 401(k) Provision. Good Luck! Lou S. and duckthing 2 CPC, QPA, QKA, TGPC, ERPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckthing Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Edited. Looks like the document I pulled up was from some Examination Guide put out by the TEGE folks. I'm not able to find a date for it. It doesn't look like there's official guidance aside from the PLR that NJ Mike cited, so I'll defer to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJ Mike Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, duckthing said: From an IRS document on calculating 404 limits: Where (and when) is this from? It seems to be the opposite of what was said in Private Letter Ruling 201229012. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmb Posted November 30, 2017 Author Share Posted November 30, 2017 Thanks for all the quick responses. I posted this for a coworker and more facts have come to light. It's a start up profit sharing plan for calendar year 2017. If we make effective date 1/1/17 and not add last day requirement until 2018, it's my understanding that we can include all 2017 comp the terminated participant since he will be eligible for an allocation. If that doesn't sound right, we appreciate any further advice. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Poje Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 there are 2 schools of thought. anyone 'benefitting' under the coverage rules can be included whether they defer or not. the other thought is that, since 2002 since deferrals are no longer counted toward the 25% deductibility issue it doesn't make sense to consider deferrals at all. so if someone doesn't receive a ps contribution (or match) don't include their comp. in other words, since for purposes of the 25% deduction limit you only consider employer contributions, then only folks who receive employer contributions should be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETA Consulting LLC Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Tom Poje said: there are 2 schools of thought. anyone 'benefitting' under the coverage rules can be included whether they defer or not. the other thought is that, since 2002 since deferrals are no longer counted toward the 25% deductibility issue it doesn't make sense to consider deferrals at all. so if someone doesn't receive a ps contribution (or match) don't include their comp. in other words, since for purposes of the 25% deduction limit you only consider employer contributions, then only folks who receive employer contributions should be considered. This IRS has tried, informally, to suggest that. But, according to the Code, Deferrals are still treated as Employer Contributions for all plan purposes. They are merely made pursuant to employee elections. I can see the logic behind them changing it to be more consistent, but (like many other things) they need to give official guidance that can be relied upon. All they have to do is rule that deferrals are no longer "employer contributions". I'm not sure, but that may require an act of Congress; the 401(k) Code seems to define them as Employer Contributions. Good Luck! CPC, QPA, QKA, TGPC, ERPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Preston Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Anybody who includes comp from those who are NOT benefitting under 410(b) is simply hanging their client out to dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Poje Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 mike - I don't think anyone here suggested that the argument is can you include someone's comp who could defer but doesn't. (or for that matter, whether you should ignore any 401k eligibility since deferrals don't count toward deduction. under the coverage rules anyone who could defer even if they don't are considered benefitting. I think the IRS biggest concern is providing a big cash balance to HCEs, then nothing (or just deferrals) in a DC plan, but being able to use their compensation toward the 6% maximum. it seems like cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Preston Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 You misunderstand my application of 410(b). It is applied twice. The application with respect to deferrals is irrelevant. The application with respect to non-"401(k)-deferrals" is what I'm talking about. "I think the IRS biggest concern is providing a big cash balance to HCEs, then nothing (or just deferrals) in a DC plan, but being able to use their compensation toward the 6% maximum." It is clear that you can't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETA Consulting LLC Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 9 hours ago, Mike Preston said: It is clear that you can't do that. To your point, the IRS has referenced Section 404(n) of the Code as the authority for saying you cannot do that. Elective deferrals not taken into account for purposes of deduction limits Elective deferrals (as defined in section 402(g)(3)) shall not be subject to any limitation contained in paragraph (3), (7), or (9) of subsection (a) or paragraph (1)(C) of subsection (h) and such elective deferrals shall not be taken into account in applying any such limitation to any other contributions. Okay, I stand corrected on this one. I haven't seen this one in my current book of plans, but do know that it was missed a lot during 2002 and 2011. 404(n) was added under EGTRRA. I've never heard of it as an issue until 2011, but never heard a definitive rule. According to the IRS, the definitive rule is Section 404(n). Many of the industry software providers never made the adjustment. I'm glad we had this discussion. I learned something today :-) Good Luck! CPC, QPA, QKA, TGPC, ERPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 I learned something too. THANKS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgarath Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 I have a nit-picking question on this. Section 404(a)(3) refers to a deduction limit which takes into account the compensation of "beneficiaries" under the plan. the IRS, In PLR 2012229012, as noted above, appears to say that this means the employee who is eligible to defer, even if they DO defer, does not have their compensation counted unless they receive an "employer" contribution. What about in an ESOP? 404(a)(9)(A) refers to the compensation paid to "employees" when calculating limits. That's a difference from "beneficiaries." Does this mean that compensation from employees who receive no allocation may be considered? Seems like a stretch to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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