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Docusign?


austin3515

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7 hours ago, Bird said:

Was it filed by the Plan Administrator?  No.

Where does it say it has to be "filed" by the plan administrator (whatever "filed" might mean).  What it says is that the credentials must be attached and if they are, that is considered filed by the plan administrator. When your accountant electronically files your return (personal, corporate, whatever), do you not think the taxpayer has filed it? Legally, for all court issues, he has.  That's good enough for me.

Lawrence C. Starr, FLMI, CLU, CEBS, CPC, ChFC, EA, ATA, QPFC
President
Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc.
46 Daggett Drive
West Springfield, MA 01089
413-736-2066
larrystarr@qpc-inc.com

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Larry sort of hijacked the thread.  Setting his unique process aside, back to the OP, if a client returns a Docusign-signed 5500 to the TPA, is this sufficient for the client to file with EBSA using the "normal" process where the TPA files and  a pdf of the "signed" 5500 is attached. 

Note to Larry - we know about your objection to the term "TPA", so you don't need to bring that up here! :D

I carry stuff uphill for others who get all the glory.

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In 33a of the above-referenced Q&A it says:

In addition, the plan administrator, employer/plan sponsor, or person authorized to sign on behalf of the DFE, including the “jurat”, must manually sign a paper copy of the completed Form 5500 or 5500-SF, as applicable, and the service provider must include a PDF copy of the manually signed Form 5500 (without schedules or attachments) or 5500-SF as an attachment to the electronic Form 5500 or Form 5500-SF submitted to EFAST2.

Oh well...  If anyone knows what a "jurat" is let me know. One time I called a guy a "jurat" in a bar and had a black eye before it was all done!:D  I think he didn;t like me from the get-go once I told him I was an international man of mystery - he was not the least bit impressed! 

Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA

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11 hours ago, Bird said:

We're going in circles Larry.  Lack of further discussion doesn't mean I agree.

Ed

Agreed! :-)

Lawrence C. Starr, FLMI, CLU, CEBS, CPC, ChFC, EA, ATA, QPFC
President
Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc.
46 Daggett Drive
West Springfield, MA 01089
413-736-2066
larrystarr@qpc-inc.com

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1 hour ago, austin3515 said:

In 33a of the above-referenced Q&A it says:

In addition, the plan administrator, employer/plan sponsor, or person authorized to sign on behalf of the DFE, including the “jurat”, must manually sign a paper copy of the completed Form 5500 or 5500-SF, as applicable, and the service provider must include a PDF copy of the manually signed Form 5500 (without schedules or attachments) or 5500-SF as an attachment to the electronic Form 5500 or Form 5500-SF submitted to EFAST2.

Oh well...  If anyone knows what a "jurat" is let me know. One time I called a guy a "jurat" in a bar and had a black eye before it was all done!:D  I think he didn;t like me from the get-go once I told him I was an international man of mystery - he was not the least bit impressed! 

As a notary, I deal with both jurats and with acknowledgements. The vast majority of notarizations are simply acknowledgements.  Rarely do I have to provide a jurat.  Here are the differences from the notarization standpoint.

Jurats

A jurat is used when the signer is swearing to the content of the document.  The notary must administer an oath or affirmation to the signer in order to complete the jurat. A jurat also requires that the signer signs in the presence of the notary. It is possible to glean this information from the jurat certificate its self.  The wording states “Subscribed and sworn to before me…” – subscribed meaning “signed” and sworn meaning that an oral oath or affirmation was given.  “Before me” means that both were done in the presence of the notary public.

Acknowledgements

An acknowledgement is used to verify the identity of the signer and to confirm that they signed the document.  They are not swearing to the truthfulness or validity of the document, they are simply acknowledging that they signed the document.  For an acknowledgement in the state of California, a signer is not required to sign the document in the presence of the notary public, but they are required to personally appear in front of the notary to confirm their signature.

While it is important for a notary to understand the difference between the two, California notaries public are not allowed to determine which type of certificate a signer uses.  To do so would be considered practicing law without a license. A Notary can only ask the signer which form they prefer; if they don't know, the notary will refer them to the originator of the document for an answer.

Now, a Jurat can also be a person, which is probably how it is meant in this circumstance (a sworn "officer" who is swearing that the content is correct as far as he knows it - under penalty of perjury stuff).

  1. a sworn officer; a magistrate; a member of a permanent jury.

Of course, this is probably more than anyone want to know! :-)

Lawrence C. Starr, FLMI, CLU, CEBS, CPC, ChFC, EA, ATA, QPFC
President
Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc.
46 Daggett Drive
West Springfield, MA 01089
413-736-2066
larrystarr@qpc-inc.com

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