KaJay

Background: Non-Electing 403(b)(9) Church Plan 2026 Limits apply Participant age 50 Includible Compensation = $80,000 Deferrals = $8,000 Employer Contributions = $72,000 Question: I will admit this seems so basic, but for some reason I am feeling perplexed today (sigh). Perhaps my understanding has been wrong all along, but I was originally under the impression that one did not have catch-up contributions until he/she exceeded the 402(g) limit. Is there any instance where the employee deferrals in this scenario would be considered as age-50 catch-up contributions, avoiding an excess contribution scenario? Does the timing/order of the contributions matter? (For example, if first the employer contributions were made and maxed out the 415(c) limit, could deferrals made after that count as catch-up contributions?) I read through section 414v and became confused by it stating [paraphrased], catch contributions are deferrals made that exceed ANY of the applicable limits, of which include limit on elective deferrals OR annual additions. In the scenario above, he exceeded the 415(c) limit with employer contributions. Does that point alone justify future deferrals in that year as catch-up? "With respect to an applicable employer plan, catch-up contributions are elective deferrals made by a catch-up eligible participant that exceed any of the applicable limits set forth in paragraph (b) of this section ... paragraph (b): (b) Elective deferrals that exceed an applicable limit—(1) Applicable limits. An applicable limit for purposes of determining catch-up contributions for a catch-up eligible participant is any of the following: (i) Statutory limit. A statutory limit is a limit on elective deferrals or annual additions permitted to be made (without regard to section 414(v) and this section) with respect to an employee for a year provided in section 401(a)(30), 402(h), 403(b), 408, 415(c), or 457(b)(2) (without regard to section 457(b)(3)), as applicable. TIA

A new development in all this... The plan's definition for calculating contributions (both employer and deferrals) includes housing allowance. The plan has received challenge that including housing allowance in the deferral contribution calculation is not allowed. I have found mixed information on this topic, but nothing clear. Does anyone have a related citation specific to church retirement plans and limitations on how they define compensation for this purpose? (On a side note, the plan does not include housing allowance when considering available comp for the 415(c) limits)

@Peter Gulia This is a creative approach worth exploring.

@John Feldt ERPA CPC QPA That is the approach most of the ministers take. However, some elect a portion of their deferrals as Roth to mitigate the tax burden on beneficiaries and the future possibility of the housing allowance exclusion being repealed.

@Peter Gulia The plan's definition of compensation for the purpose of calculating contributions based on a percentage includes housing allowance. Because the employer did not include the pastor's housing allowance as part of his comp, the calculation resulted in a much lower contribution.

Background: 403(b)(9) non-electing church plan Multiple employer plan The plan (not the 700 individual participating employers) sets the definition of compensation when it comes to calculating contributions based on a percentage. This one employer used the wrong definition of comp and consequently shorted deferral contributions for the employee since 2021 (yikes) I am unsure what correction method is appropriate and didn't find anything specific in Rev. Proc. 2021-30. I also read a page on the IRS website that states the plan can amend the definition of compensation, but that does not seem reasonable with a multiple employer plan where there is one definition for all employers to follow. How does the employer fix this? Can the employer provide an employer contribution for 50% of missed deferral portion? Is there something clear cut I am missing? TIA for your responses.

@david rigby I agree with your last statement! The 403(b) rollover request paperwork of the receiving firm explicitly states RMDs are not eligible for rollover and the participant acknowledges he/she must inform the sending firm it cannot include the RMD. While this appears to be a good faith effort of the receiving plan, likely to avoid a correction like this, one would imagine the 401k provider should "know better".

@CuseFan Thanks for your quick reply. The plan decided to do just that. The checks will be returned to the sending firm.

A 403(b) plan received two rollover checks from a 401(k) on behalf of a participant age 74. Check #1: Pre-tax deferrals ($4,915) Check #2: Non-Qualified Roth basis ($10,447) with earnings ($590) [First Roth contribution = 2024] The 403(b) was informed that the participant's 2025 RMD for the 401(k) was not distributed to him prior to the rollover. The participant is not eligible to make regular contributions to the 403(b). The 403(b) has not cashed the checks yet because it does not want to deposit ineligible amounts. It is wondering if it can return the checks to the 401(k). What is the cleanest way to correct this?

@David D @Artie M Thank you both for your responses and additional research. It is greatly appreciated!

@David D He had taxable income of $2,633. The $10,000 is an "up to" annual limit. The lifetime limit is $40,000.

@Artie M Q1 - If the excess amount plus earnings will not be distributed until the participant becomes eligible at some unknown time in the future, is the plan required (or is it a best practice) to reclassify the excess Roth amounts as pre-tax within the plan now? If not, it seems like it could be administratively messy. Q2 - I understand that we are not to send the excess plus earnings back to the participant without a distributable event. a. Does this mean we let the funds stay in the plan indefinitely? b. What does fixing this 2024 deferral excess look like operationally from start to finish? Meaning, other than recoding the Roth as Pretax now, is there anything special that occurs? It would seem that when the funds are distributed in the future, it will just look like a regular distribution. c. If the funds were pre-tax to start, what would change operationally?

@David D The participant is a minister with designated clergy housing allowance. His housing allowance for 2024 was $8,400.

@RatherBeGolfing The deferrals did not exceed the $23,000 limit. Since my earlier post, we have a bit more information related to his contributions: 2024 Total EmployER [non-matching] contributions: $5,520 2024 Total EmployEE Roth contributions: $5,520 2024 Total Taxable [includible] Income: $2,633 It has been decided that the special employER contribution limit [IRC Section 415(c)(7)], that allows the employer to contribute up to $10,000 beyond includible compensation, will be applied to help reduce the excess. Below is what I think may need to occur to ultimately establish the extent (and type) of excess: 1. First we apply the employEE contributions received up to the includible compensation limit ($2,633). a. This means the 2024 employEE contributions are in excess of $2,887 (plus any earnings related to that amount) 2. Second, the special limit allows for employER contributions (up to $10,000) even though the includible compensation was used up by the employEE contributions. a. We can apply this special limit to 100% of the employER contributions that came into the plan in 2024 ($5,520). b. Because the employER contributions are not in excess, the excess is limited to a 402(g) excess. Questions related to quote above (any reference to the IRC is appreciated!): Q1: Is the delay in distributing the excess deferrals based on it being after April 15? Q2: For excesses that are not distributed prior to 4/15, does the participant simply get a 1099R for 2024, taxing him on the excess plus earnings, but the deferrals actually stay in the plan until he requests them (and has a distributable event)?

Plan Type: 403(b)(9) Non-electing Church Plan Background: Participant (under age 59.5) contacted the plan in May 2025 because his tax professional told him he did not have enough includible compensation to support the amount of Designated Roth 403(b) deferrals he made in 2024. For purposes of my question, he only made Roth deferrals to the plan and these excess deferrals totaled $5000, and there were $100 in earnings on that excess. Questions: Since the distribution will occur after April 15, 2025, there is some confusion as to how it is to be reported on the 2025 1099R. IRC § 402A(d)(3) seems to instruct the payer to tax the participant on the full distribution, not just the earnings portion, when distributed after April 15 (which seems counter intuitive). IRC § 402A(d)(3) states the following: (3) Treatment of distributions of certain excess deferrals Notwithstanding section 72, if any excess deferral under section 402(g)(2) attributable to a designated Roth contribution is not distributed on or before the 1st April 15 following the close of the taxable year in which such excess deferral is made, the amount of such excess deferral shall— (A) not be treated as investment in the contract, and (B) be included in gross income for the taxable year in which such excess is distributed. Q1: Referring to the highlighted text, does this mean that the 1099R should be written as follows: Box 1: $5100 Box 2a: $5100 Box 5: (blank) Box 7: 1, 8 (assuming no known exception to early distribution) Q2: Does withholding apply to this distribution? (I think not) As always, thanks in advance for your responses!