Schedule P

[Guest jalbee]

We are having a discussion in my office concerning the correct EIN to use on question 2(B) of Schedule P. If a plan does not have it's own EIN then the Form 5500 instructions state to enter the EIN used on Form 1099-R. If a plan has it's own trust EIN then use that. But, what if a plan investments are in an insurance contract such as Manulife. Should Manulife's EIN be used here or the plan's EIN.

Any insight would be appreciated!

[Blinky the 3-eyed Fish]

It wouldn't make sense to use Manulife's EIN because there could easily be a situation where the plan uses two different companies to house assets and both prepare 1099-R's. In fact the Schedule R allows for more than one entry on line 2.

[BFree]

If the instructions say use the 1099-R number in the abscence of a trust EIN, then use the 1099-R number. You can complete an SS-4 application for TIN in about 15 minutes.

[jane123]

I am reviving this thread because I have a similar question.

Scenario

ABC Inc is the prototype sponsor

XYZ Inc in the employer who adopted the profit sharing plan sponsored by ABC Inc.

Questions:

Whose ID number must be input in question 2a of schedule P?

Whose EIN must be input in question 5 of Schedule P

Thanks in advance for your help

[WDIK]

Line 2a of the Schedule P is used to report the trust's identification number. This is the number assigned to the employee benefit trust by filing Form SS-4. Instructions for the schedule P indicate that if you do not have a trust EIN to enter the EIN you would use on Form 1099-R.

Line 5 of the Schedule P should correspond with Line 2b of Form 5500. You may be confused because of the use of the term "sponsor." Please note that the instructions for Form 5500 Line 2a defines "plan sponsor" as the employer (for single employer plans). In your case XYZ, Inc.

[jane123]

Very grateful WDIK

Thank you

[Guest Factster]

Another Schedule P issue --

A client has never requested a Trust Identification Number, but has attached a Schedule P using the sponsor's EIN.

They have filed their Form 5500 / Sch P this way for all plan years (5 in all). What issues, if any, will this create? Should

the past five Schedule Ps be amended to reflect the new trust number when it is received?

[WDIK]

In my opinion this will not cause any problem if the sponsor's EIN is the one that was or would have been used on Form 1099-R. I would not amend prior Schedules P but would start using the trust ID number once it is assigned.

[TCWalker]

It's been argued that using the employer's EIN on line 2 is indicia that the Plan sponsor - Employer is performing as a Plan fiduciary. Just something to consider.

[WDIK]

I deal almost exclusively with small plans where the owner of the employer adopting the plan is also the Trustee, so fiduciary status is already established.

There have been some interesting discussions on these message boards regarding employers and the functional definition of fiduciary.

[Harwood]

It wouldn't make sense to use Manulife's EIN because there could easily be a situation where the plan uses two different companies to house assets and both prepare 1099-R's. In fact the Schedule R allows for more than one entry on line 2.

"Schedule P (Form 5500) may be completed by every trustee of a trust created as part of an employee benefit plan as described in Code section 401(a), and by every custodian of a custodial account described in Code section 401(f)."

So if two places house assets, both could/should file a Schedule P. It does make sense to use Manulife's EIN doesn't it ? [assuming Manulife's EIN is on the 1099-Rs]

[Guest Pensions in Paradise]

Harwood makes an interesting point. We always obtain a trust identification number for our clients, and use that on the Schedule P. Now I'm wondering if we should be filing two Schedule P's, one for the "trust" and one if the plan uses Manulife, MassMutual, etc.

I'd like to hear from others who deal with Manulife, MassMutual, etc.

[E as in ERISA]

The only time I've ever seen the Schedule P have any relevance was in an IRS audit of a plan, where it expected the party signing the Schedule P for the years under exam to be the one who signs the agreement to keep the statute of limitations open for the trust. At some point, vendors may balk at continuing to sign those agreements (especially if they have been or will be fired).

[Guest Pensions in Paradise]

My concern is whether filing only one Schedule P will start the statute of limitations for the entire plan. Let's say a plan uses Manulife. If we only file one Schedule P for the plan's trust, and not one for Manulife, could the IRS take the stance that there is no statute of limitations for the Manulife portion since a Schedule P was not filed?

This really concerns me since the only reason we file Schedule P is to get the statute of limitations running.