Does FreeERISA change form before they put it up?

[Jim Chad]

What changes to 5500's have people heard of being done by FREEERISA?

Looking at 2005 form the date is handwritten, the signature is deleted (a good thing).

But here is the odd part. The box for amended is unchecked and my copy and the DOL show it checked. Has anyone seen anything like this before?

Any guesses as to why?

[GBurns]

I have not heard of it with FREEERISA but that could just because that sort of thing does not get noticed or discussed much.

I have seen similar thing with other documents and the reason has always been the same. The copy that the client or the advisor has was not the same as the one filed with the regulator etc. It is claimed to be a copy but it always turned out to be different for a number of resaons such as noticing when inserting in the envelope that the box was unchecked, then checking it with the intention of doing the same on the copies already made, but not getting around to doing it.

Another reason is that there are still some copy machines and scanners that will not copy blue ink, so if the original check mark was done in blue ink it would appear blank on copies.

I just got 2 originals of an agreement with the address and ink being different on each, as a result copies will differ..

[Jim Chad]

Let me emphasize and clarify. FreeERISA and the DOL have copies that are different. The DOL matches my copy of a signed 5500. The amendment box is checked and it is definitely done by the software when printed. FREEERISA does not show the amendment box checked.

As I said the DOL does.

I feel like I have entered the twilight zone.

[Kevin C]

I noticed the same thing on amended filings and filings for terminated plans. My guess is that freeerisa is just not showing the entries for those boxes. They get their information from the DOL database. I don't see why they would change anything.

[maverick]

I've also noted that the final return block is not checked on final returns. free5500.com does have an 'x' in the final return of the same return I just checked on freeERISA.com. Go figure.

Maverick

[GBurns]

I did not understand the "twilght zone" comment, but let me try to clarify.

In simple terms, To get documents into the database, the forms are scanned. Most scanning does not create a duplicate (as in an exact picture) but rather creates a "simulated copy" using OCR or other such software. The OCR or other such software interprets what it sees and tries to use "intelligence" to re-create what it thinks should be there. As a result there are additions and/or omissions and a document copy that might not be an exact duplicate.

Then there is the retrieval method which does almost the same thing when extracting from the database. That is also who 2 different retrieval services can have 2 different "versions" of the same document. A similar thing can be seen with IRS docuemts such as PLRs. TA format is different from BNA etc, yet all came from the same IRS database.

This is a possible reason. Especially with older systems.

[ERISAatty]

I did not understand the "twilght zone" comment, but let me try to clarify.

In simple terms, To get documents into the database, the forms are scanned. Most scanning does not create a duplicate (as in an exact picture) but rather creates a "simulated copy" using OCR or other such software. The OCR or other such software interprets what it sees and tries to use "intelligence" to re-create what it thinks should be there. As a result there are additions and/or omissions and a document copy that might not be an exact duplicate.

Then there is the retrieval method which does almost the same thing when extracting from the database. That is also who 2 different retrieval services can have 2 different "versions" of the same document. A similar thing can be seen with IRS docuemts such as PLRs. TA format is different from BNA etc, yet all came from the same IRS database.

This is a possible reason. Especially with older systems.

I agree with GBurns theory as a good explanation of why this happens. But at a meeting of benefits practitioners, recently, I did hear one of them comment that the FreeErisa versions don't always match their own versions. Very odd, but probably explained by technology glitches.

[Guest DanCole42]

In simple terms, To get documents into the database, the forms are scanned. Most scanning does not create a duplicate (as in an exact picture) but rather creates a "simulated copy" using OCR or other such software. The OCR or other such software interprets what it sees and tries to use "intelligence" to re-create what it thinks should be there. As a result there are additions and/or omissions and a document copy that might not be an exact duplicate.

George is absolutely correct.

The DOL does the actual scanning using OCR, and errors do occasionally creep in. We put the data up exactly as provided by the DOL (errors and all): no changes are made. We have had sponsors/TPAs request that we correct certain mistakes now and then, but unfortunately we cannot oblige those requests as we assert fidelity with the DOL's data and such a correction would invalidate that.

We can obtain actual copies of filed 5500s for verification or other purposes. These would be copied faithfully from the DOL archives, including all signatures, pen strokes, and (in the case of some of the more harried and poorly groomed preparers) coffee stains.