Last night's "perfect" game

[Guest Sieve]

The Sieve was at the Tigers' game last night, and then stayed up half the night watching the replay of the final "out" over & over & over. My reaction at the time, without benefit of replay, was that he should have been called out on a close play like that for the final out of a perfect game. The batter later said that he expected to be called out based on the circumstances. Interesting, though, when you look at the replays: Carlos Guillen, at 2B, was right there, and could have made the play had Carbera (1B) stayed at 1st to take the throw . . .

We all expected that the perfect game was meant to be after the absolutely phenomenal Willie Mays over-the-shoulder catch in left center field for the first out of the 9th. Unfortunately, we were wrong.

[GMK]

Thought about you, Sieve, as soon as I heard. My condolences

and commentary:

http://benefitslink.com/boards/index.php?s...c=45675&hl=

The commissioner could change the call, but he'd probably call it a tie (a la the all star game), which would go to the runner.

Some you lose; some you don't win.

[Andy the Actuary]

Unfortunately, Jim Joyce and his blown may be more remembered than had the perfect game been completed. Those old enough may recall the Don Larsen PG in the '56 WS ended on a controversial third strike call (on Dodger Dale Mitchell) by home plate umpire Babe Pinelli. Don Denkenger's blown call in the '85 WS is more well known than the identity of the game's winning pitcher (Quisenberry). And for what is Bill Buckner best remembered? His near HOF career?

Perhaps a more perplexing question is why wasn't "The Sieve" watching the Red Wings in the Stanley Cup finals last night?

[Tom Poje]

having watched it live thanks to the cut in by ESPN, it hurt to watch the thing unfold, almost as if it was in slow motion. I'll give the ump credit for admitting his mistake, I'll give Galaraga credit for his immediate reaction at the call. that smile was wonderful.

ah, maybe now they will use instant replay for other situations. it should be a no brainer, if you have to look at a file over and over like they do in the NFL, then don't change the call, but if you can look at it right away and know immediately, then switch things.

[Guest Sieve]

Actually, I truly wanted to watch the Wings in the Stanley Cup finals, but I couldn't find it in any TV listing!

Joyce has recovered from his fall from the bridge--he's behind the plate this afternoon.

Yes, we often do remember the screw-ups more than the heroics. Like Tin Cup's 12 on the final hole of the US Open!

Does anyone remember Harvey Haddix's gem?

[Andy the Actuary]

Does anyone remember Harvey Haddix's gem?

Haddix was a 27 year old rookie in '53 when he went 20-9. This little (about 5'9"", 165) carve-ya-up lefthander posted a fine season in '54 and then was approaching toast, when he was shipped to the Phillies in '56. He never regained his earlier form and had it not been for his 12 perfect innings against the Braves, would be long forgotten. Heck, does anyone remember Alex Kellner, let alone, that he too was a 20 game winner in his rookie season (Philadelphia A's in '49)?

[movedon]

Sieve, I think you're being a little too generous here. The runner was out, and it wasn't close. The call should be overturned.

[Guest Sieve]

I would like to see that, too, but on what basis is a pure judgment call (other than current instant replays on HRs) reviewable in baseball (by the commissioner or otherwise)?

Tennis allows the chair umpire to overrule the line judges, and, apparently, the Olympics allow(ed) international basketball officials to overrule on-court officials in the final seconds of a championship game, and umpires/referees can huddle at that time to change a call, but I just don't see how this can happen in baseball--or, any other sport, for that matter--if it's on an after-the-fact basis (other than the official scorer changing a hit to an error, or an appeal of an incorrect ruling on an interpretation of the rules of the game).

So, I'm not holding my breath (even if I could).

[Andy the Actuary]

Sieve, I think you're being a little too generous here. The runner was out, and it wasn't close. The call should be overturned.

How do you overturn a call that is not protestable under the rules of baseball? Would you argue as such if the perfect game had not been at stake? How about if the call was a game-altering decision (e.g., runner on 3rd scores the winning run)? Compound this by making this play in the last sentence the end of a one-game playoff to decide the pennant winner?

No doubt, a horrible injustice was committed that will cost this pitcher personally and possibly financially.

I must say the umpiring this year has reached bottom in terms of accuracy, consistency, and judgment. Unfortunately, with unions so strong, there is no peaceful solution to dealing with incompetent umpires.

Lippy, I'm with you: They ought to reverse the call, but they can't and won't. There're simply too many other worms in the can.

[GMK]

Does anyone remember Harvey Haddix's gem?

12 perfect innings and then to lose on a 3 run homer that turned into a 1 run (unearned) double. And Burdette pitches a 13 inning shutout. But Haddix had a night. Wow.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/183935-...x-burdette-duel

[Guest Sieve]

I would love to be wrong in this particualr instance, but, unfortunatley, I agree with Andy as to the overturning issue. After all, this wasn't even a game-changing blown call. If we review this, does that mean that someone who loses the batting crown by .0003 (a la George Kell/Ted Williams) can have all his error calls reviewed to see if any of them might have been the one hit needed to win?

In Detroit, one of the radio announcers is suggesting that baseball institute instant replays for certain calls (other than balls/strikes), perhaps one max per team per game, limited only to game-changing events in the later innings of the game, with severe penalties if the call goes against the appealing team (like a free base runner, or loss of another out), which can be reviewed immediately (say, in a war-room like in the NHL for goals) and will not significantly delay the game.

[Andy the Actuary]

I would love to be wrong in this particualr instance, but, unfortunatley, I agree with Andy as to the overturning issue. After all, this wasn't even a game-changing blown call. If we review this, does that mean that someone who loses the batting crown by .0003 (a la George Kell/Ted Williams) can have all his error calls reviewed to see if any of them might have been the one hit needed to win?

In Detroit, one of the radio announcers is suggesting that baseball institute instant replays for certain calls (other than balls/strikes), perhaps one max per team per game, limited only to game-changing events in the later innings of the game, with severe penalties if the call goes against the appealing team (like a free base runner, or loss of another out), which can be reviewed immediately (say, in a war-room like in the NHL for goals) and will not significantly delay the game.

I watched one nauseating Cardinal game this year where there was roughly a 10-minute delay to review a home run. These games seem to be running about 3 hrs 15 minutes as it is. Perhaps what would be better is if there were honest conferment among the umpires. The second base umpire had to be in pretty good position to note that the runner was out in last nigh't fiasco. He could have jumped in but there is the unwritten rule not to undermine your colleagues. Perhaps, the request could be for an umpire conference rather than an instant replay. My own suggestion is that if you ask for a conference and you're wrong, your team has to buy the post-game beer.

[Guest Sieve]

That was another by-product of a great pitching performance by both pitchers last night (2 complete games, less than 100 pitches by each pitcher - only 21 balls by Galarraga and just 30 by Carmona): the game was 1:44!! Old-time baseball.

By the way, GMK, I don't think Haddix is given credit for either a perfect game or a no-hitter under the new rules, even though he pitched both through 9 innings. I wonder if someone pitches an 8-inning no hitter on the road, which he loses (so the home team does not bat in the 9th, is given credit for a no-hitter? I think you must pitch a no-hitter until the game ends, and I think it must be at least 9 innings of no-hit ball, but I'm not sure.

[Tom Poje]

years ago they overturned the George Brett pine tar incident, I suppose they could always step in and do the same given the circumstances, but then where do you draw the line?

as for review, it should sort of work like when food falls on the floor - if you can't make a decision in less than 30 seconds, its to close to change.

ah, for no-hitters - Miller / Barber of Baltimore vs Tigers in 1967, 2 pitchers combined for a no-hitter and still lost 2-1

[GMK]

I don't think Haddix is given credit for either a perfect game or a no-hitter under the new rules, even though he pitched both through 9 innings.

... said the lawyer.

I don't think he was given credit for either back then. But he did pitch 12 perfect innings in one game, and a one-hitter with no earned runs (thanks in part to Mr. Aaron's base running boo-boo) in 13 (OK, in 12-2/3), which is hard to top.

At the time, I was amazed by Mr. Haddix's performance and happy for Mr. Burdette's win.

[david rigby]

How do you overturn a call that is not protestable under the rules of baseball?

Sue!

[Andy the Actuary]

How do you overturn a call that is not protestable under the rules of baseball?

Sue!

Who is she and how can she help?

[Belgarath]

As a fan, I am utterly opposed to overturning such calls on instant replay. I hate what it does to the ebb and flow of a game.

Yes, it was a blown call, which would be quickly forgotten if it wasn't in the situation at hand. But umpires blow calls. Fielders make errors. Pitchers make bad pitches. It is just part of the game (and yes, it is still a game - not like a cardiac surgeon being drunk and killing someone by botching an operation.) Yes, most unfortunate, but there would be nowhere as much angst and animosity if the second baseman had just thrown the ball into the stands for an error.

I am particularly impressed by the class with which the pitcher handled the situation, and I give him all the credit in the world.

So I feel sorry for all involved (the poor ump is just sick about it) but I still don't want instant replay. Part of the allure of the game is that "x" factor and the glorious uncertainty of an umpire's call.

[movedon]

*lippy struggling to resist temptation to argue about baseball rules, instant replay, slippery slopes, etc. on BenefitsLink...*

It's just wrong I tells ya'! I bet some smart people could come up with a fair way to overturn that call within the current rules or with a new very limited rule regarding egregious results of wrong calls. Come one, let's get behind this!

[jpod]

I hate instant replay in baseball, I hate the DH, I even hate the post-68 intra-league division structure. If they reverse that call (as bad as it was), I may stop watching.

[Guest Sieve]

Bel --

Yes, Galarraga's public reaction was impressive. Very impressive. The club's response, likewise: apparently, Galarrage took the lineup card out to home plate before this afternoon's game (Joyce is behind the plate today).

And, for some reason, although we generally permit the $6,000,000 players to be less than perfect, we expect the $200,000 (?) umpires/referees to be more than perfect.

GMK -- I had forgotten that Burdette won the Haddix game. He became a hero of mine when he pitched 3 complete game victories (2 were shutouts) against the Yankees in the '57 World Series--the last on 2 days' rest!

[david rigby]

And, for some reason, although we generally permit the $6,000,000 players to be less than perfect, we expect the $200,000 (?) umpires/referees to be more than perfect.

Amen!

[movedon]

I hate instant replay in baseball, I hate the DH, I even hate the post-68 intra-league division structure. If they reverse that call (as bad as it was), I may stop watching.

Well, I also hate the DH, inter-league play and instant replay, but I hate bad calls a smidge more than I hate instant replay. Dang it, I said I was going to resist.

I think the inability to overturn a blatant bad call really calls the whole game's credibility into question. That would make someone question whether or not they want to watch.

EDIT for typo

[GMK]

I don't watch any more. It's not the DH, interleague play, playoffs.

I despise (hate is such a mean word) chemical baseball and too-big-to-play "all stars" who are on their planes heading home before the "all star game" is even to the ninth inning.

Consider 1955. Extra innings. Who batted in the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th innings? Do the names: Mantle, Berra, Schoendienst, Musial, Mays, Kaline, Kluszewski, and Aaron ring a bell? Whose homer won it in the 12th? Musial.

Those were All Stars.

Doubters can check the play by play listing here:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NL...195507120.shtml

[Tom Poje]

Supposedly (if true) was Galaraga's response after the ump admitted his mistake

"well, nobody's perfect"

now that's funny.

[Guest Sieve]

The Tigers' approach to this lingering issue:

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/news/article...sp&c_id=det

Classy manager, classy organziation.

[Andy the Actuary]

For all of you who want baseball to go back to two 8 team leagues and for them to insert 10 baseball cards in pack for 5 cents, ponder this, based upon long-standing frustration with how the national past-it-time has changed under the guidance of our very own Tony LoRussa: What would Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak had been had he played under Tony. I would guess he might have gotten to 28 or 29. For those of you who need to remember baseball the way it was, take a look at this:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SF...196307020.shtml

Spahn was only 42 at the time. I wonder what his pitch count was?

[Fredman]

I wonder what his pitch count was?

One too many.

[A Shot in the Dark]

I think everything that went on illustrates all of the good things about the game of baseball.

This may provide for a return of fans to the game.

And he still received his corvette.

[Tom Poje]

and everyone knows he had a perfect game anyway, and people will probably remember this one more than the other ones this year.