SSA for 403b's

[austin3515]

Has anyone addressed this collossal issue yet? Some of these 403b's who have nver reproted before could have hundreds of people to report. Any relief expected? Is anyone talking about this stuff? Allso, has anyone had success getting full socials from TIAA for this purpose?

[mbozek]

Has anyone addressed this collossal issue yet? Some of these 403b's who have nver reproted before could have hundreds of people to report. Any relief expected? Is anyone talking about this stuff? Allso, has anyone had success getting full socials from TIAA for this purpose?

This may be one of those questions where if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it is there a sound. Until 1986 T/C only issued individual annuity contracts which were issued to/owned by the individual participant. After a participant left the plan they possessed the annuity contract. Dol. reg 2510.3-3(d)(2)(ii) provides that an individual is not a participant in a plan if the entire rights of an individual are fully guaranteed by an insurance company and are legally enforeceable by the sole choice of the individual against the insurance company and the contract has been distributed to the individual.

Since 1986 T/C has issued group annuity contracts which are also covered under the above provision because participants receive certificiates of insurablilty which are the equivalent of an insurance contract.

So the answer to your Q is that no SSA reporting was required in an ERISA 403b plan funded by an annuity contract under the DOL rules because the benefits were distributed to the participant in an annuity contract at termination so there was no deferred vested benefit held by the plan for the participant. I dont know if the IRS will continue to apply the DOL interpretation to years after 2008 because SSA reporting is now an exclusive IRS requirement under form 8955-SSA. But it would make little sense to require reporting to SSA where the individual possesses all rights to receive the funds held under the annuity contract and can reqeust a distribution directly from T/C or an insurance company.

[austin3515]

Since when is logic a prerequisite for this stuff??

Ha ha... In spite of your unquestionable logic, TIAA itself has created an "SSA Report" - only problem is they need termination dates updated for everyone (including removing those rehires) which is just too complicated to expect accuracy (at least for the smaller institutions)...

But I agree that these are IRA's and all of this stuff is over-kill.

[mbozek]

Since when is logic a prerequisite for this stuff??

Ha ha... In spite of your unquestionable logic, TIAA itself has created an "SSA Report" - only problem is they need termination dates updated for everyone (including removing those rehires) which is just too complicated to expect accuracy (at least for the smaller institutions)...

But I agree that these are IRA's and all of this stuff is over-kill.

Who would ever file such a report for prior years? Most 403b plans are exempt from ERISA because they are sponsored by public schools or hospitals. Also the instructions to the 5500-SSA specfically exempted ERISA 403b plans from having to file any schedules including the SSA.

But I sure am glad I dont have to worry about reporting and disclosure.

[austin3515]

mbozek -

Those were the good old days. ERISA 403b's (of which I have several as clients) are now required to file full 5500's, and also must file the 8955-SSA.

[mbozek]

mbozek -

Those were the good old days. ERISA 403b's (of which I have several as clients) are now required to file full 5500's, and also must file the 8955-SSA.

I agree but the ERISA 403b plans are not required to report vested deferred benefits of participants who terminated prior to 2009 on the 2009 8955-SSA. As I understand it the 8955-SSA reporting is only required for terminations from 2009 on.

Or am I wrong?

It still makes no sense for a 403b plan to report to SSA that a participant has a deferred vested benefit under the plan when the participant retains all of the indicia of ownership over the annuity contract and there are no assets payable from the plan.

Every time I see one of your posts I remind myself of how lucky I am that I dont have anything to do with 5500 reporting anymore.

[austin3515]

I think I'll do everyone on the SSA, because I can't thionk of good way to keep track of who to D and who not to D every year. Therefore, I think life would be easier if I reported everyhone, so I could just D anyone who took a distribution. Now, if I'm excluding participants from 5500 reporting altogether, I would feel differently. But most of my audited plans chose to include everyone because it was just easier, and they clearly needed an audit anyway.