Tom Poje

yes. and to make things even clearer. you do not make a 3% contribution to 1000 nhces. you simply assume they averaged 3% in the prior year. It is a freebie simply because the plan didn't exist. if this wasn't true, you could never use prior year testing on a new plan, because the average in the prior year was 0%.

I would agree, as long as plan passes ADP before and after shift you are ok. I suppose in addition to the double counting rule, testing method should be the same (both prior or both current) certainly under the proposed regs that would be the case. I would also make sure the document allows it! I hacv seen some that define ACP to include 'match and after tax' no mention of 'deferrals not used in the ADP test'. One still has to follows the terms of the document

1st year of plan, if you are using prior year testing, then the HCE avg can be 5%. Hopefully your document says to use prior year testing. This might require some refund, unless the kids deferred a high % I wouldn't think it would be a bad refund. Plus $1000 in catch up contributions!

you indicated that employees hired on x date were eligible. That means someone could have actually started work on that day, and therefore for would be eligible after working only 1 day. Therefore, all employees who work 1 day are eligible. Thus, in your case, anyone who is showing up as ineligible would be treated as includable and not benefiting. Interestingly enough, it appears you get a free ride on the ADP test, since you can treat all HCEs as having met statutory requirements!

I would say YES to all your questions. I am assuming that the 401(a)(4) test, you did not impute disparity, since you can not impute on the safe harbor piece.

not sure what earlier posts would have been referred to. The gateway rule is quite clearly, if you receive any type of profit sharing (including forfeiture and top heavy) then you must be kicked up to the gateway. A SHNEQ is still a non elective contribution and those people would have to be kicked up as well, regardless of hours worked or if they terminated.

I would like to believe the following is true. I find this powerful and inspiring, even if it only turns out to be a story. .......................... In Phoenix, Arizona, a 26-year-old mother stared down at her 6 year old son, who was dying of terminal leukemia. Although her heart was filled with sadness, she also had a strong feeling of determination. Like any parent, she wanted her son to grow up and fulfill all his dreams. Now that was no longer possible. The leukemia would see to that. But she still wanted her son's dreams to come true. She took her son's hand and asked, "Billy, did you ever think about what you wanted to be once you grew up? Did you ever dream and wish what you would do with your life?" Mommy, I always wanted to be a fireman when I grew up." Mom smiled back and said, "Let's see if we can make your wish come true." Later that day she went to her local fire department in Phoenix, Arizona, where she met Fireman Bob, who had a heart as big as Phoenix. She explained her son's final wish and asked if it might be possible to give her six-year-old son a ride around the block on a fire engine. Fireman Bob said, "Look, we can do better than that. If you'll have your son ready at seven o'clock Wednesday morning, we'll make him an honorary fireman for the whole day. He can come down to the fire station, eat with us, go out on all the fire calls, the whole nine yards! And if you'll give us his sizes, we'll get a real fire uniform for him, with a real fire hat-not a toy one-with the emblem of the Phoenix Fire Department on it, a yellow slicker like we wear and rubber boots. They're all manufactured right here in Phoenix, so we can get them fast." Three days later Fireman Bob picked up Billy, dressed him in his fire uniform and escorted him from his hospital bed to the waiting hook and ladder truck. Billy got to sit on the back of the truck and help steer it back to the fire station. He was in heaven. There were three fire calls in Phoenix that day and Billy got to go out on all three calls. He rode in the different fire engines, the paramedic's van, and even the fire chief's car. He was also videotaped for the local news program. Having his dream come true, with all the love and attention that was lavished upon him, so deeply touched Billy that he lived three months longer than any doctor thought possible. One night all of his vital signs began to drop dramatically and the head nurse, who believed in the hospice concept that no one should die alone, began to call the family members to the hospital. Then she remembered the day Billy had spent as a fireman, so she called the Fire Chief and asked if it would be possible to send a fireman in uniform to the hospital to be with Billy as he made his transition. The chief replied, "We can do better than that. We'll be there in five minutes. Will you please do me a favor? When you hear the sirens screaming and see the lights flashing, will you announce over the PA system that there is not a fire? It's just the fire department coming to see one of its finest members one more time. And will you open the window to his room?" About five minutes later a hook and ladder truck arrived at the hospital and extended its ladder up to Billy's third floor open window. 16 firefighters climbed up the ladder into Billy's room. With his mother's permission, they hugged him and held him and told him how much they loved him. With his dying breath, Billy looked up at the fire chief and said, "Chief, am I really a fireman now?" Billy, you are, and the Head Chief, Jesus, is holding your hand," the chief said. With those words, Billy smiled and said, "I know, He's been holding my hand all day, and the angels have been singing." He closed his eyes one last time. My instructions were to send this to at least four people that I wanted God to bless and I picked you. Please pass this to at least four people you want to be blessed. This story is powerful and there is nothing attached, please do not break this pattern; uplifting stories are one of the best gifts we receive. There is no cost but a lot of rewards, let's continue to uplift one another. Stop telling God how big your storm is. Instead tell your storm how big your GOD is.

ok, how about the difference between 1.401(k)-1(g)(4) and 1.401(m)-1(f)(4) both say "By contrast, if an employee must perform additional service (e.g. satisfy a minimum period of service) in order to be eligible...the employee is not an eligible employee. however, 1.401(k) adds 'see paragraph (e)(5) for certain limits on the use of minimum service' and 1.401(k)-1(e)(5) says 'only if no employee is required to complete a period of service greater than one year (determined without regard to section 410(a)(1)(B)(i)) with an employee maintaining the plan to be eligible to make an election under the arrangement.' I suppose you might try to argue applying this on a year to year basis - I don't read it that way. Certainly there is no 'last day' provision in this section, and again, no such similar cite exists for match about imposing additional limits, plus I have never seen a document that gives you a choice of requiring an additional service requirement in a given year. The ERISA Outline Book (3.90 of the 2003 edition certainly seems to believe you can't have an hours or last day condition, the only possible confusion being its statement "Additional accrual requirements USUALLY will not apply to the participant's right to make elective deferrals.." It provides 2 examples. But then note it adds an exception that if the ee had a break in service this could result in suspended participation. i would add a condition such as switching from nonunion to union as another change that might make someone ineligible.

well, it depends - especially what you are referring to..... see 1.401(a)(4)-(4)(e)(3)(iii)(D and F) Benefits Rights and features "...based on the plan's definition of compensation....regardless of whether that definition satisfies section 414(s)... so BRF doesn't appear to care If you have a 'safe harbor' formula (e.g. integrated at 5.7%) then you have 2 choices amend comp defintion to keep the status of the safe harbor plan or test the plan just like you would if the plan was cross tested, but using 414(s) comp rather than the plan's definition of comp.

I just received this from a good friend. I pass it on ................................................................................ ... Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, June 26th, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: "Since the dawn of creation there has been both good and evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. "The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA-- because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent." "I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy; it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today: Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question "Why?" You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need! "Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. "What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs, politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. "Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. "There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God! "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. "Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! "My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!" .......................... Do what the media did not -- let the nation hear this man's speech. Please send this out to everyone you can!!!

see 1.410(b)-7(d) permissive aggregation - this is an option, not document driven an employer MAY designate two or more separate plans as a single plan. (I am working with the assumption that you have 2 separate plans) I suppose also see sced T question 4(b) in testing....does the the employer aggregate plans.. lets change the numbers A 10 NHCE 5 HCE B 10 NHCE 1 HCE Tot20 HNCE 6 HCE if I dont aggregate then for A I have 10/20 / 5/6 = 60% Fails ratio% If I aggregate I have 20 / 20 6/6 = 100% so plan passes so why not aggregate every time? because you have to aggregate your non discrim test as well. A HCE = 6% NHCE 4% passes B HCE = 4% NHCE 2% passes but when you aggregate, because there are more HCEs in A you get A & B HCE 5.67% NHCE = 3% Plan Fails! Now, in this example the ratio for A was 60%. that easily passes any safe harbor% so all plan has to do is pass the avg ben % test and you are okay. There is no choice in this test. all plan aggregated whether you permissively aggregate plans or not. All contributions are aggregated (eg deferrals match and ps) even though for other coverage thety are tested separately

1. as far as I know, it doesn't matter whether the HCE wants the match or not - if according to the terms of the document, he is eligilble how can you avoid not giving the HCE the match. 2. Fir the sake of the argument, if the HCE didn't defer and therefore received no match, and assuming there are no other hces, then the ADP test passes. 3. Based on the facts, you have a partial termination and all hourly employees would be 100% vested????

I would agree switching from match to SHNEC or back shouldn't be a problem on an annual basis, but it raises a question. Is the Notice provided to be thought of as 'an amendment' or a 'board of resolution'? If your document only contains language for a safe harbor match, how are you going to switch to a SHNEC? You might have to amend to accomplish what you want.

Start with the following: In a controlled group, all employees are treated as if employed by one employer (Code section 414(b) © and (m) Now, the question would be if you choose to aggregate the plans or not. If you choose to aggregate for coverage you must aggregate for nondiscrimination (ADP and other) testing somewhere in your example you are off an HCE, but I will go with the following A is 14 NHCE 5 HCE B is 5 NHCE 1 HCE Total 19 NHCE 6 HCE A = 14/19 / 5/6 as you indicated B = 5/19 / 1/6 but I would add 'maybe'. This would be true if plans had the same eligibility. If plans had different eligibility then you take that into consideration. So when you look at 'A', anyone in B who did not meet the eligibility of A is not ' includable and not benefiting' but rather 'excludable' In addition if someone in B had met the eligibility of A but terminated with < 500 they are includable and not benefiting because the exclusion rule only applies to 'participants' and that pewrson was never a participant in A

The ideas about science quoted here were taken from essays, exams, and classroom discussions. Most were from 5th and 6th graders. (#32 is my favorite) Q. What is one horsepower? A. One horsepower is the amount of energy it takes to drag a horse 500 feet in one second. 2. You can listen to thunder after lightning and tell how close you came to getting hit. If you don’t hear it, you got hit, so never mind. 3 Talc is found on rocks and on babies 4 The law of gravity says no fair jumping up without coming back down 5 When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions 6 When people run around and around in circles we say they are crazy. When planets do it we say they are orbiting 7 Rainbows are just to look at, not to really understand 8 While the earth seems to be knowingly keeping its distance from the sun, it is really only centrificating 9 Someday we may discover how to make magnets that can point in any direction 10 Australia has cold summers and hot winters, but somehow they still manage. 11 Most books now say our sun is a star. But it still knows how to change back into a sun in the daytime 12 Water freezes at 32 degrees and boils at 212 degrees. There are 180 degrees between freezing and boiling because there are 180 degrees between north and south 13 A vibration is a motion that cannot make up its mind which way it wants to go 14 There are 26 vitamins in all, but some of the letters are yet to be discovered. Finding them all means living forever 15 There is a tremendous weight pushing down on the center of the earth because of so much population stomping around these days 16 Lime is a green-tasting rock 17 Many dead animals in the past changed to fossils while others preferred to be oil 18 Genetics explain why you look like your father and if you don’t why you should 19 Vacuums are nothings. We only mention them to let you know they are there 20 Some oxygen molecules help fires burn while others help make water, so sometimes its brother against brother 21 Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun. But I have never been able to make out the numbers 22 To most people solutions mean finding answers. But to chemists solutions are things that are still all mixed up 23 In looking at a drop of water under a microscope, we find there are twice as many H’s as O’s 24 Clouds are high flying fogs 25 I am not sure how clouds get formed. But the clouds know how to do it, and that is the important thing 26 Clouds just keep circling around the earth around and around. And around. There is not much else to do 27 Water vapor gets together in a cloud. When it is big enough to be called a drop, it does. 28 We keep track of the humidity in the air so we don’t drown when we breathe 29 Rain is often known as soft water, oppositely known as hail 30 Rain is saved up in cloud banks 31 In some rocks you can find fossil footprints of fish 32 Cyanide is so poisonous that one drop on a dogs tongue will kill the strongest man 33 A blizzard is when it snows sideways 34 A hurricane is a big breeze of a bigly size 35 A monsoon is a French gentleman 36 Thunder is a rich source of loudness 37 It is so hot in some places that the people there have to live in other places 38 The wind is like the air, only pushier

Mr. Butler: And your grandparents probably had to do trudge through that snow in Hawaii! ............ Things have come quite far on the tests. We used to get copies of the test, and you could go back over the questions. That was kind of nice. But I still recall finding the answer to one question in a footnote of a some pension book. Just be glad they don't do that anymore! All kidding aside, be proud of your designation. Obviously now you have to earn continuing ed credit to maintain that designation.

I'm not wild about the term 'lesser', but for lack of something better I guess that would be true. All QPA's are QKA's, but not all QKA's are QPA's (unless I don't remember the difference between the two) I have known some QKAs who I would say are a lot smarter than QPAs - if you are talking non DB stuff. Who would you rather have process a 401k - a genius QKA or an average QPA? If it helps, I jokingly say that the QPA's today are 'softies' compared to when I took the tests. Shoot, we used to get penalized for wrong answers. Plus we had to know a bunch of 'extra' stuff that has been eliminated by much of the pension simplification over the last few years.

As I said, my sense would be no, and that item from the DOL is the best I can come up with at the moment. I didn't think it mattered exactly when the deposit was made it was still 'deemed' to have been made on the last day of the plan year. Your question on deductibility I believe is easier because, at least as I understand it, a contribution is deductible either for the year it was made (if by tax time) or in the year made. Without a cite, I would have a problem with, at least it looks to me, having a 14 month requirement for the contribution. I would think 12 month is the longest period. Now, if the credit date ran 3/1-2/28, but comp was based on the calendar year, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with - I have seen that done.

If the plan is a 401(k), or I guess for that matter, allowed after tax contributions, then an employee who could havemade deferrals is considered benefitting, whether they actually made them or not. Maybe that was the scenario you came across. But if they absolutely can't get anything, then you can't count their comp.

I was going to say simply add a user alpha field, and change the user field to the division name just before printing the report. But if there is nothing in the field I don't think the report will print at all. On the other hand, if all you use is the portrait version, you could modify it, rename it to the 'landscape' version. the system doesn't no ny better, it will still print portrait. (I know, cuz I have two version that print landscape (one sorts by comp the other alphabetically) Anyway, that is about what you are doing now anyway, with probably less work involved. It is too late in the day for my mind to come up with a simpler method.

My sense would be no, based on DOL 2530.200(b)-1(b) such a plan, may..an individual who has separated from service before the date on which the er's contributions to the plan or forfeitures are allocated among the accounts or before the last day of the vesting computation period....

Just to make clear, especially when you say that 'each plan passes coverage' in the controlled group all employees are treated as if employed by one employer. Therefore for coverage, if you test separately, when testing A, all employees of B who met eligibility requirements of A are includable and not benefiting. You are not permitted to exclude terminees with less than 500 hours either. This is coverage only. ADP test you would only include A's participants.

Ha! I imagine you could easily show me up at the ASPA conference. You'd be surprised how much I keep 'discovering' along the way. I have to give a talk, and throwing together the notes and reg cites has been a real trip!

perhaps. I don't do the documents in the office so I could be using incorrect language. Ultimately (I think) you have said the same thing, you submit for a determination letter - you do not rely on the opinion letter..

The Butler is correct, sounds like you are out of luck. A plan can (or must) be aggregated for top heavy purposes even though it can't be aggregated for coverage see 1.547 (2003 edition of ERISA Outline Book) I was unsure of that, but that is a pretty reliable source, aybe that is what mr williams is looking for - something in writing.