City Hall pension

[Guest skylynx]

Please, I need help getting started. My husband worked 20+ yrs for Orlando City Hall as an administrative assistant. We were married all that time, but divorced some years after he retired. He died a few years ago. City Hall said he opted to exclude me from the pension plan. I don't recall signing away my right to part of it. I'm 62 now and qualify as a low- income senior. Can yall please coach me on how to get started finding my legal rights there, if any? Thanks much.

[GBurns]

First suggestion is to post this on a few other Boards such as "Retirement Plans in General" and "401(k)". I cannot speak for others but I would have no objection to see this request for help duplicated.

Second, You need to get a copy of as much documentation as possible, read them, then give us some more info as to what type of plan it is etc.

Third, make any requests for payment or for info in writing and get your responses in writing. Do not get into a telephone exchange. It will leave you without proof of anything.

In the years after he retired and before the divorce what was he getting as pension and what were you getting. Do you have any of his statements from that period and do you have any copies of his retirement documents? Do you have copies of the tax returns filed during that period? If the tax returns were filed as married filing jointly, you should have copies or you should request copies from the IRS, but not just yet, I think that you will eventually need them.

Do you have an insurance agent or financial planner who sold either you or your ex-husband any investments, insurance, annuities, pension supplement, 403(b) etc, get his name and telephone number ready, you might need to make him earn some of his commission.

[mbozek]

Before you spend a lot of time following burns advice you need the answer to two simple questions: 1. Did your husband need your consent to take a benefit which would cease at his death. Most govt pension plans do not require that a spouse must consent to the employee's election to receive benefits only while the employee is alive. The pension administrator for the city can answer that question. 2. Did your divorce decree require that his benefit be paid to you after his death? You need to review the divorce decree or call the lawyer who represented you in the divorce. If the answer to both questions is no then you dont have any basis for collecting his pension.

[GBurns]

mbozek,

Since neither you nor I even together know everthing about every issue, Why should she not post to other Forums for other opinions?

If the lady knew which documents were needed and what to look for she would not have posted seeking help.

The lady has already stated that "City Hall said he opted ..." Which means that she spoke to someone there who gave her an answer that she is not comfortable with. The post also did not say that they had given her any sort of "proof" or support for whatever whomever told her.

The post stated that "City Hall said .." which means to me that this lady is not aware that there is a Plam Administrator and since the person at "City Hall" did not direct her there, I suspect that she was not talking to a proper person. The best way that I know to find out who to contact is to look at the actual documents ans so I made that suggestion.

Without any "proof" or support How is she to understand and agree?

Since they gave her nothing in writing, How can she complain to anyone ?

Since there is nothing in writing, How can she "prove" that this is what they really told her? That is whatt I suggested.

Since neither you nor I know exactly what that Pension plan provides and how nor do we know what retirement option her husband chose, Isn't is best that she get the documents so that she can have someone explain them to her, rather than make a broad statement such as "Most govt pension plans do not require .." When something is not known as a fact or is not certain, it is best to just look at the governing documents. I know that you seem to have a problem reading, but why shoot off instead of trying to guide this lady? She needs something that she can understand and accept as proof, she should not be given baseless comments, she needs guidance.

The City of Orlando has a pension plan and a Deferred Comp Plan, and used to have or might still have a 403(b) plan. What this lady refers to as a "pension plan" is even not yet clear. Many consumers lump all these plans together as retirement plans and by implication "their pension" . This lady is a beneficiary and she might not really know what her husband had and therefore could have asked the wrong questions of the wrong person at City Hall. How will she know what her exhusband really had if she does not get the documents that will show her what there was? The City Hall pension person might not be the Deferred Comp person or even know of the supplemental 403(b) but the tax return might disclose contributions or distributions. Do you know if they will or not? Since I do not know I can only suggest that she look.

As you stated "You need to review the divorce decree or .." Again this is one of her documents and I suggested that she get her documents.

Without all her documents she could not and should not answer your questions with any certainty. Even with the documents she should have someone interpret them for her so that she can be sure that she understands and agrees with whatever is interpreted.

In a case like this I do not see how any reasonable compassionate person would be pushing this lady into giving answers to simplistic questions without knowing if she has all the facts and understands them. Since she stated that she is low income I suggested that she use someone, like the agent, who has some experience and resources to provide some help at no cost since they already made some commisiion in the past. Why would you want a person who admits to lottle or no understanding to forego seeking help.

She has too much at risk, All she needs is help and guidance.

[Theresa Lynn]

Although you did not mention this, remember that, if you were married for at least 10 years and you have not remarried, you can be treated as a surviving spouse for purposes of getting social security benefits based on his record, assuming that he was in a social security-covered position and this provides you with a higher benefit than using your own record.

See http://www.socialsecurity.gov/cgi-bin/cqcg...TS_DOC_TEXT=YES

[GBurns]

Theresa,

On behalf of this lady, I thank you for your input and your thoughtfulness of putting the link. This is exactly what the lady needs, some help and guidance in ways that she can easily follow.

[mbozek]

GB: According to the post H excluded the spouse from receiving benefits under the plan. Since benefit plans are a condition of employment and a spouse's rights are derived from the rights of the employee there is no need to ask for a lot of documents and information which may be difficult to get from a govt entity which is not subject to disclosure rules under ERISA without retaining counsel. The question is whether the employee could receive benefits in a single life form without spousal consent. Any other rights the ex spouse may have to a pension would be in the divorce decree or property settlement which she should review. Referring her to other pension plans to which a govt employee was not eligible to participate in (403(b) plans are only available to public school teachers and 501©(3) employees) is not helpful. Also the staute of limitations for making a claim for pension benefits may have expired.

[GBurns]

Now you are starting to understand the lady's dilemna. She does not know if spousal consent was needed and she clearky stated that she does not remember signing anything. She does not know what there was and City Hall is not telling her so she has to get the documents and look for herself.

No one has excluded her from anything except some person at City Hall, who was/is not the Plan Administrator and whose knowledge etc is unknown.

Only the documents can tell her whether or not there are spousal rights etc. Only the documents can tell her if there is a survivor benefit. Only the documents can tell her what the statute of limitations are.

Why do you want this lady to guess? Do you know of any way of getting the facts other than through the documents?

[GBurns]

mbozek,

Since you are supposed to have expertise etc in pension plans and I am not " heavy" on pension plans I decided not to respond to your comment about "the staute of limitations for making a claim for pension benefits may have expired. ", but, in yesterday's "Benefits Buzz" there was a news item about a lawsuit, Twomey vs Delta Airlines Pension Plan, wherein the retiree waited 9 years before requesting or filing for pension benefits. This caused me to look elsewhere and I could not find any references anywhere to there being any such thing as a"statute of limitations" or any required time frame.

Why do you feel that there is such a limitation?

Re:"a govt employee was not eligible to participate in (403(b) plans are only available to public school teachers and 501©(3) employees) is not helpful"

Are you saying that governmental employees of municipalities and states who work at entities such as hospitals, schools community colleges and universities which are owned and/operated by that municipality (state, county, city) are not eligible to have a 403(b)? If that is correct then there are millions of employees who are in big trouble.

[mbozek]

IRS pub 571, P3 limits 403(b) eligiblilty to employees of public schools who are involved in day to day operations of a school, 501©(3) organizations and special interest groups who have been deemed eligible employees for 403(b) annuities by Congress e.g., employees of public school systems in indian tribal governments. Employees of govt entities which are separately organized and perform the functions of eligible organizations (e.g., a public hospital) are deemed eligible to sponsor 403(b) plan under IRS rules. However employees of a municipal govt or govt employees not involved in school operations are not eligible for a 403(b) plan.

There is no s/l for filing a claim for benefits under ERISA other than the general rules of equity. The s/l for suing on a denial of a benefit under erisa is determined by the applicable state law governing such claims or the time prescribed in the plan. In a non ERISA plan s/l for filing a claim is determined by state law.

[GBurns]

Since we do not know exactly what kind of work the poster's husband did for the City and whether or not he worked for an entity such as a school district or hospital operated by the City, and therefore have no idea what he was a participant in and do not know the terms and conditions of that participation, I come back to the original suggestions.

How do you propose that this lady find out exactly what she is entitled to or not entitled to without getting all the documents with all the details?