Establishment of multi employer DB offered to HCE prohibited union workers

[Guest sfeldmeth]

Our company joined a multi employer DB plan for HCE but refused to allow NHCE to participate because they were collectively bargained. Plan states union may be excluded if their pension is bargained in good faith. HCE at company have three pensions, NHCE have one.

[david rigby]

What is the question?

[Effen]

Did you have a question or are you just making a comment?

Your post is a little confusing. A "multi employer" plan is generally only for collectively bargained employees. In a multi-employer Plan, the union generally bargains the contribution rate or benefit with the company and the multi-employer Plan provides the benefit.

HCE's generally have their own plan since the bargaining group does not represent them. If you are unhappy with the disparity between the retirement benefits provided to the HCEs and the bargained employees, you should address your concerns to the bargaining committee.

Could you supply more specifics?

[Guest sfeldmeth]

The multi employer is one union that the HCE are joined as a "Related Organization" but the office workers belong to another union. The office workers were denied participation in the multi employer plan based on being collectively bargained but I don't think the pensions in the Union plan were bargained in "good faith". Can the office workers be denied the pension at the establishment for the Related Organization? This is all new to me.

[Effen]

You claim that "this is all new" to you, but you use terms like "multi-employer", "HCE" and "NHCE" that generally only "pension" people are familiar with. "HCE" and "NHCE" are defined terms inside the pension industry. They apply to a specific category of employees who earn over $90,000 or are owners of the company. What do you mean when you use them?

Are you saying that the office workers union never brought up pensions during their contract negotiations? Do you feel that they should be covered in what you call the "HCE's multi-employer plan"? What trades are you referring to?

I'm still not sure what your question is?

"Can the office workers be denied the pension at the establishment for the Related Organization?" - yes, depending on a lot of variables: the bargaining agreements, size of the groups, make up of the groups, etc.

[Guest sfeldmeth]

Yes it's new to me I'm learning a lot during my research. The office workers are in negotistions now. The UA pension that we are trying to get has been proposed. The HCE joined two years ago. I brought this up to our union rep at the time and they said they didn't have to offer it to us because of our union status. It just seems ironic to me that they use our union status to deny us participation whereas if we did not have the union they would have to by law put us in the pension. Why did they not have to offer it to us when it was offered to the HCE. It was offered in the middle of the office workers contract...it was not open. Do you understand my question?

[WDIK]

From my perspective, excluding a group governed by a collectively bargained agreement is an allowable alternatvie for the reason that such a group has the opportunity and the ability to negotiate their own benefits. The law requiring inclusion of other employees is to try and protect those without the "clout" of a union.

[Effen]

It is your union’s responsibility to represent you. If you have an issue with the benefits provided by your employer, I think you should address your concerns to your union representatives.

Because you are represented by a union, who bargains on your behalf, Congress allows your members to be excluded from most discrimination testing because your union represents you. This has advantages and disadvantages.

Let’s say you agree to work for me for $20 per hour for the next three. In year two of your contract I hire another person and pay her $30 per hour (or $10 per hour). The fact that I her deal is different than yours doesn't change your deal. You may not like it, but that doesn't change it. Your union bargained your benefits and signed a contract with your employer. What your employer does with people outside your union doesn't change your contract.

"It just seems ironic to me that they use our union status to deny us participation whereas if we did not have the union they would have to by law put us in the pension” This is partially correct. They would need to "consider" you as a group, but they wouldn't necessarily have to put you in the plan. It depends on the size of the group and the make up.

[Guest sfeldmeth]

Thanks for the information. I do know that they would have to include us if we were not union, I spoke to the Plan Administrator (There are two HCE and three NHCE union employees who are full time) The question seems to be if there was good faith bargaining on the part of the union then it is okay to exclude. I have been told that good faith means only that it was proposed by our representative. It wasn't at the time the HCE's got it but is being now.