Requesting input...

[stevena]

Seeking some input from TPA owners while I put my resume together.

I have worked at the same company for 6 years now. Before here, I worked at a pension firm in another state for 5 years. Little did I know that the TPA firm I worked for did everything wrong. I was fresh out of school and had no idea how wrong we were doing everything. (didnt know till I got here...where we do everything right).

The city I am applying to is in the same city as the old TPA I worked for. I think that the old TPA probably has a pretty bad reputation. Can I leave it off my resume?

would you look at my resume and wonder...where was she before her current job? I don't want it to look suspicious.

thanks for any input!

[david rigby]

Perhaps some will think me "pollyannaish" (as if I care), but my advice is:

Never lie, directly or indirectly, on your resume.

Enhance the cover letter with whatever brief explanations are desired.

[stevena]

No I would never lie...but leaving it off my resume entirely, I meant. I just dont want to be tainted by it. It was so long ago, I thought maybe it wouldnt be an issue anyway. I wasnt going to go back any further than my current job. Not like I was going to skip over the other job, I just was going to stop at this one.

So what kind of explanation do you think? How do you say "I was stupid and had no clue what I was doing, only I didnt know that"??

[SoCalActuary]

A more positive spin is: Include the experience on the resume, emphasize the areas of training you received at the firm, and point out how much more you learned after you left. In my opinion, the experiences you gained since make the earlier bad experiences more useful. Even a bad example is an opportunity to learn.

In addition, you may run into people who had some understanding of the problems of the old firm, especially since you are going into their town. The new firm might be very interested in what you have learned.

[david rigby]

Well said.

But beware, you may be interviewing with someone who formerly worked at the first firm, and who might not have the same perspective as you.

BTW, as implied by my first response, an omission from a resume could be considered a form of lying, IMHO.

[GBurns]

Leaving out an employer would be regarded as lying. Lying on an application is grounds for termination.

Leaving them out might leave a gap that might be questioned and even held against you.

It is questionable that you should think that the "TPA probably has a pretty bad reputation". This is probably quite incorrect. Most company reputations are not based on quality of product or service. In any case what you might know and think is not necessarily what other might know and think.

[stevena]

OK thanks for the assistance. Maybe I should have been more specific. The operation was just one guy, working out of his home. There were no other employees except for me and random other folks who came and went after a month or so. I thought we did everything we were supposed to. I was fresh out of school and had no experience. I bailed as soon as I figured out that we were doing everything wrong.

I know the guy is being sued by many, many clients. They all dispersed to other TPAs in the area. I am sure everyone in the business knows him, and I am very sure his reputation is poor, both in the TPA field and in the business field in general in that city.

So, I wont leave it off the resume. bad me. I just thought maybe since a recruiter told me only to go back 7 years on a resume, (unless something before that was very relevant to the job I wanted) and I was approaching 7 years, that it wasnt a big deal to not go back that far. I wasnt trying to be dishonest. And it definitely is not relevant, since it didnt teach me a thing except what NOT to do.

So, with that info, can anyone assist on how to approach it on the cover letter? again, there is no doubt that everyone in the city knows him.

[david rigby]

... a recruiter told me only to go back 7 years on a resume, (unless something before that was very relevant to the job I wanted)...

I've been out of the job market for several years. If this is the new "technique" for designing a resume, I flatly reject it. Not acceptable. If I were the interviewer, this resume would not get anywhere.

[Belgarath]

On this side, rock. On the other side, hard place. Between them, you.

This is so dependent upon the preferences of the person reading the resume that's it's nearly impossible to decide the "best" course of action. You could perhaps try something like "previous employment history available on request."

There are some folks who want to see every job back to your lemonade stand when you were 6. Others just want recent employment history, as you mentioned.

Once you get the interview, this experience can easily be turned into a plus, "I've had first hand experience in the importance of accurate and proper business practices, and the consequences of noncompliance. This makes me far more attentive to detail than an average employee." Etc., etc. - it's very true that all experiences contain their own lesson for someone willing to learn.

I'm with Pax - I may be old fashioned, but if I were reviewing the resumes, I'd want to see employment history prior to current employment. If you are absolutely convinced that employment with the TPA you mentioned is a red flag that will otherwise remove you from consideration, then I see little choice but to address it squarely (but VERY diplomatically) in your cover letter. If the person doing the hiring is going to toss you out automatically if you've been employed by the TPA, it would likely come up in the interview at some point anyway.

However, I would think that since you've been at another reputable firm for 7 years, this would count for more than the fact that you worked for this TPA prior to that. So I'd personally be very hesitant to assume it will be held against you.

If 'twere me, I'd list the TPA employment on the resume, and hope for the best. The negativity of trashing a former employer in a cover letter, even if done diplomatically, will turn off most employers.

[stevena]

thanks. Pax, that's why I asked about not listing it and what everyone thought. When the recruiter told me that and said not to list it becasue it was too long ago, I wanted another opinion. It didnt sound right to me that I could just list one job. But his opinion was that employers "dont care about jobs you had that long ago". Guess he is wrong, eh?

I guess I will just list it and hope for the best. Maybe someone will be willing to overlook it.

thanks for the insight. Hopefully i can use some language like you suggested if I can get my foot in the door. My only fear is that I won't get that chance...

[GBurns]

Why not state in your cover letter that "for sake of brevity only the last 7 years employment history is provided, the remainder will be provided if needed" or use the wording given by Belgarath ? That would leave it up to the prospective employer, if they are interested. And if they are you can repeat verbatim what Belgarath suggested.

[stevena]

Would anyone else have an issue with that (above)? Pax, would you look at this as lying? or would this be ok with you?

[WDIK]

As a prospective employer, a cover letter stating "for sake of brevity only the last 7 years employment history is provided, the remainder will be provided if needed", accompanying a resume that lists only one employer would raise a question in my mind. You can't get much briefer than listing a single employer.

I would wonder whether the applicant was trying to hide something or understood the term brevity. The rest of the resume and cover letter would have to be pretty impressive for me to even want to see the remaining employement history.

[david rigby]

OK, it might be acceptable to use the "will be provided on request" approach, but this makes sense only when there jsut isn't room to list everything, IMHO. But that does not change my preference to 'list it all". If you were building a resume at age 40, would you list only the last 10 years or so, leave a "gap", and list your academic background? Not me.

[Effen]

As an interviewer, I would much rather see "bad" experience than "no" experience. The "unspoken truth" would definitely raise some huge flags about you, if & when I found out. Although you may not realize it yet, the actuarial/benefits field is relatively small community. Therefore, I would most likely know more about you, than you know about me when you walk in the door. I would eventually find out about your past experience and then you would need to explain it. You may or may not get fired for it, but it would be a mark against you.

I would definitely list the prior "bad" experience even if it were raised as an issue. Since it was your first job, no one should hold it against you, unless you try to be deceptive about it. Most of us worked at one place or another that wasn't the best. That is what makes experience valuable.

[stevena]

OK, I put it on there. Hope it goes over ok... now just waiting for the phone to ring!

Thanks for all the input. Again, I wasnt ever trying to be deceptive. And yes, I do know how small this business is, that was my hesitation.

I guess my hesitation was because I see this all the time at my firm when resumes are sent in. If someone works (worked) somewhere that we know has a bad rep, the boss wont even consider them. Unfortunate, but true...they have the scarlet letter.

So now my only worry, that I have only had two jobs total in the past eleven years since I graduated from college. Sometimes I think that goes over as badly as the resumes we get in that show a new job every year....

[Effen]

now just waiting for the phone to ring!

You will be waiting a long time if your just waiting for YOUR phone to ring....

You gotta get out and make their's ring!

[stevena]

Yeah, I know. Applying for a job feels like when you meet a boy when you are a teenager. Do I call them? How many days should I wait? Do I wait for them to call me???

Too funny.

[pmacduff]

Stevena - I had to comment on your comment about ONLY having 2 jobs since college and you seeing that as a negative. My how the world has changed ! I'm 42 and have only had 2 full-time jobs my entire adult life (worked 13+ years in retail and started in pension administration in 1990 - been here ever since). In the old days, it looked good for an employee to have stability & loyalty, etc. That was one of the reasons I was hired in 1990 with no pension experience - because they were impressed with my background! I'm not trying to be flip or snied here, I just think it's amusing that the younger generation thinks that more jobs might be a positive on the 'ole resume whereas I think the less times someone has changed around is a positive!!!

[stevena]

I dont know if its that way everywhere...I hope not! But, I have seen employers who think that someone who has been somewhere "too long" get "set in their ways" and "lack flexibility".

I hope the people I am sending resumes to think like you!

[david rigby]

stevena,

on another message, you indicated the general location where you are applying. Don't forget to look here for alternatives, and look thru several categories for those in the state/region you are looking.

[GBurns]

And the Benefits Link Jobs section here http://benefitslink.com/jobs/

[Effen]

I definitely agree with pmacduff. Too many jobs is a definite negative.

Don't get all "worked up" about your past experience. It is what it is and you can't change it. If you started off in a bad shop and moved on, then good for you. If you are in a good place and stayed a long time, then good for you. Generally people who move around a lot (inside the same geographic area) are either chasing the $$ or aren't very good at what they do.

Switching jobs during your first 5 years is very common. Switching too many times after that (without a decent reason) might raises a flag.

[stevena]

Morning all,

I am looking for more suggestions. This time, does anyone have suggestions on how to check out a company. How good are they? What is the reputation? What is it like to work there? Etc.

I have gotten some responses to my resume, and will do some interviews. But I want to be careful of where I go...not make a bad move.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[SoCalActuary]

Predicting the future of your employment, hmmm.. how's your predictive powers?

If you are judging from past experience, network with people who've worked there, with their competitors, with their vendors (such as fund wholesalers, software companies), accountants you know, etc..

However, companies do sometimes change. The opportunity offered is partly what you want it to be, and partly what they imagined it would be. I would say to look for a firm that is willing to continue educating you, promoting you, and helping you grow.

[stevena]

I'm out of state...I see what you mean, I could do that easily in my area. I'm venturing, though, into a little bit of unknown territory...I dont know the area accountants or the fund group reps. Maybe I can network around with my guys up here, and try to see if anyone knows anyone...etc.

thanks

[david rigby]

An article on a growing trend to minimize the use/importance of resumes, in general.

http://www.thirdage.com/news/articles/ALT0...4050203-01.html

[stevena]

Interesting article...I love the idea of being able to fill out a questionnaire.

I went last week to interview...had a great interview at one firm. Have one firm that I wish would return my calls..the position sounds so perfect, but they havent called. I bet they shy away from relocating applicants...Hope it works out. (weather was so beautiful! nice break from the ice and snow!!)

[stevena]

I think I am getting a little bit discouraged. I visited and interviewed. Had some great interviews. The problem I keep running into, is that companies seem to be so departmentalized. In the position I have now, I am the one who does testing, and compliance, and distributions, and deals with legal questions and consulting the attorneys. I fill out adoption agreements. I design new plans. I terminate plans. I do CPA, and IRS and DOL audits. My clients are my clients.

It seems that everywhere I go, these are seperate positions. There are "people" who handle each piece.

My fear is, that if I get put into a peg hole, a few years down the road, I will lose my ability to work in all the other areas. I dont want to be the testing "person" or the audit "person" or the distribution "person". I dont want to spend my days transferring clients to other departments.

Is this the way things are going? It seems to me that full service people are just not seen as necessary anymore. I wonder if I should move into another area. For instance, if I move into sales, I could have client contact, design plans, and keep up on legislation. Only problem with this, is that I have a family and hate the thought of an unstable income.

I guess I am looking for some insights from all you owners out there. Any helpful thoughts? advice? Thanks! Lisa

[pmacduff]

stevena - I have only done pension administration for small firms (our clients are from 1 - 300 roughly) and I do everything for the client as you mention. I came from another small company where I also did everything from soup to nuts. You sound like you have a lot of experience, have you ever considered starting your own business? I know you said you have a family to support, but perhaps you should consider this avenue...

[stephen]

stevena,

I get the impression that most large firms are compartmentaizing the positions as you discuss. An option woul dbe to stick with a smaller firm for example the job listed below from the Employee Benefits Jobs section of this website.

Good luck to you in your job search!

DC/401 (k) Plan Administrator

for Benefit TechGroup, Inc.

in NJ, PA

Small Actuarial, Consulting and Administrative firm seeks entrepreneural type to help handle client contact and administer DC,401 (K) and some DB Plans. I am an enrolled actuary who has lost my right hand person to large firm. Person must be problem solver, self reliant and familiar with Relius administration. This is a career opportunity with partnership potential for right person. Must be creative, excellent communication skills and not afraid to help build a business. We are a small consulting firm which administers 125 and ESOP's.

We are growing and need stong support person. We intend to move our offices to more central location.

Serious Candidates should mail, fax or email a resume and letter to:

Nathan S. Kolbes,President

Benefit TechGroup, Inc.

P.O. Box 1175

Southampton, PA 18966

Fax - (215) 947-7334

Email - nk@BTGinc.org

[stevena]

pmc...maybe some day, but for now, my kids are so little. (8,6,and 4). Maybe 10 years from now that would be an option. The amount I have learned from my past employers, both small firms, is amazing. However, I am not sure I am at that point yet, I still have learning to do.

I was thinking that maybe if I did a certain position, like plan implementing, that it might combine all the areas I am used to working in into one. The position would be designing new plans and doing all the work to get them set up and brought in. Then I would have to keep current on regs, and testing, and design. But I have found (suprisingly) that this isnt really a position...the brokers do it. The "conversion" people tend to just work on data entry, essentially.

When I work with the brokers to sell a plan, I often think, I am designing this plan, I am setting it up, why shouldnt I go into sales? I would love a position assisting a broker, that would be great. Generally I have found, though, that they arent much interested in plan design, or setting it up properly, etc...they tend to just want to get that money! My worry about sales is not only the fluctuating salary but the traveling. I need to be home with my kids after work.

I wonder if small firms like I work at now are rare? I cant seem to find them. If anyone has any ideas, (in the NC area), I would love some help! My plan for the weekend is to scour the ERISA attorney offices and CPAs and see what I can come up with.

thanks for the input,

Lisa