Cross Testing Homework or Tutorial

[Guest nrehme]

I have a client wanting me to determine if a cross tested plan would help him. So far I have not had to administer any such plans. I've been studying my PPD manuals and have a simplistic understanding of the concepts.

I'd like to plug some values into a spreadsheet and see what comes out. But I get the feeling that it is not so simple.

Can anyone point me to discussions on this site or other references I can read online that will get me closer to my clients request.

I have two partner owners making $150,000 and not the oldest. About 8 staff who make $70,000. Currently they are a Safe Harbor plan.

Any suggestions for raising my learning?

Thanks

[himt4]

http://benefitslink.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=27774

[AndyH]

What a waste of Harwood and Willie's time that link is!

[Guest nrehme]

Thanks, I saw that one, but I am looking for a little more substance, hopefully in the form of a spreadsheet.

[WDIK]

What a waste of Harwood and Willie's time that link is!

I propose that Equus caballus has succumbed to the Pale Horse.

[AndyH]

Fred the spreadsheet man can help. Somebody email him?

WDIK, I haven't fully researched your last one about the guy one of my study halls was named after yet. Actually it may have been the Church at my college. I think you left out Saint though. This one I can probably figure out, but the word "Uncle" would have sealed it.

[Blinky the 3-eyed Fish]

Nrehme, don't take this the wrong way, but you need a much more advanced understanding that surely can't be provided by a spreadsheet. Without that complete understanding you simply should NOT be doing cross-testing. There are just too many rules to butcher. For now you need to contract this out to assist with your endeavor. For later, seminars, the ERISA Outline Book and some practical experience will help.

[Tom Poje]

no, some say you need to be cross dress-ed

all kidding aside - you really have to know what you are doing, rather than just use a spreadsheet. I tried attaching the spreadsheet I got from Fred, but it says I can't upload that type. sounds like something is wrong with the sytem again. I will have to ask Dave the Baker.

by the way, with the spreadsheet

there are no instructions.

it needs to be updated for the latest TWB and other limits

etc

etc

to simply plug numbers and get results that say 'PASS' is no guarantee without some good practical knowledge.

for instance, one software has an option to use SSRA as testing age. yes, it works great to check that item, but the 'legality' of that under the regs is questionable.

As indicated the ERISA Outline Book provides some very useful ino, I have tried as well to provide some info in the Coverage and Nondiscrimination Answer Book

[Guest ritchie]

Well, maybe it's easy for you to kid about these things but some of have to live with ourselves.

[Guest nrehme]

Thanks to all for your input. I'm aware that my posting of a spreadsheet request is simplistic but I figured it was a quick way to get a response and to learn how deep I might be in mud. No offense taken, but how does one learn these things and where? I'd still like to raise my level of understanding. We plan to hire it done anyway.

Tom, thanks for trying to send. If I can get a spreadsheet, I'll update and not take as a final answer, just for learnings.

[SoCalActuary]

NIPA & ASPPA both have study notes and training on the techniques of cross-testing.

Seminars and training have been available over the past 15 years since the early versions of 401(a)(4) regulations were issued.

However, this training works best if you are tutored by a knowledgable practitioner.

[wmyer]

The full-day Corbel seminar on new comparability is outstanding (I'm not connected with Corbel). Also, the ERISA Outline Book, as Blinky mentioned, is a very good resource for learning cross-testing.

[jquazza]

NIPA just launched a series of on-line seminars (one of them is on cross-testing) you can take at your own pace in your home or office at an affordable rate.

[Tom Poje]

nrehme - if you send me your e-mail I can send you the file (click on my name and you can send an e-mail through the benefits link directly)

as for how does one learn - that is real interesting. I worked for Corbel many moons ago, back in the glory years of DOS of Pentabs, and they came out with the nondiscrimination module. There were no instructions on where the numbers came from, and seeing how I figured I would take calls on the system I taught myself by simply running different contributions, and mathematically figured out where the numbers came from. trial and error. practice. sort of like learning math in grade school, repetition. There certainly wasn't a lot of material available at the time. I suppose it would have been great to have a lot of material available but if it had been I doubt I would have learned as much as I have (or at least as 'deep' as I have) without actually crunching the numbers by hand. And I would be the first to admit I might have made some errors along the way, or could have done things better - I think that is why people throw out cautions about simply plugging numbers and going with the results. Good luck!

Books are a great resource, attending seminars helps, but I suspect most of those are aimed at people who have a grasp of the material to start with.

At last year's fall ASPPA conference during the talk I gave I walked through the mathematics of simply depsoiting money in a bank account and watching that one deposit grow with interest. And then suddenly I ended up with an E-Bar - I suspect few saw it coming - very effective. It was great to hear someone tell me they had been doing cross testing for a few years but now the numbers made a lot more sense.

[K-t-F]

PENTABS.... was that the DOS program that used a Vector computer with the brians of a now hand held calculator... cost about $50k ? Out of Santa Barbara CA? Back in ...ohhhh... 1983? we had that, may still in storage. I actually designed a MS Access database and used their screen numbers (i.e. an investment is #4) because it was so familiar.

I have this spreadsheet... honestly can't remember who sent it to me. Is it yours Tom? If not, would you critique it for me? Cross testing is something that I have farmed out... but would like to be more comfortable doing it myself. (I especially like the little hats in the equations... and the happy contra rebels that Blinky pointed out in the other post)

XTEST_K_with_report.XLS

[K-t-F]

Here is that other SS... Fred's.

XTEST_K_with_report.XLS

[Tom Poje]

I suspect that report is my variation of Fred's. (especially since it says

'w report' cuz I wanted a print out of just contribution data.

If you used Pentabs, did you use the Floridata Dot Matrix Printers. Man those things wre built to last. I bet those suckers would still run even today.

[K-t-F]

Yes... that monster printer that ate up boxes of computer paper... landscape. I remember having to change the paper to print participant certs. A dynamo... Still have that also!

I didnt think that Fred's made it to the board after I tried to load it as an attachment. I actually gave up after it kept loading... and loading... Too bad there aren't any instructions. (Hope you dont mind I put it up.... say the word and I will take it down. I guess since I put it there I have the power to take it back.)

Question for the x-testing "Gurus"... do you perform the testing by hand... or use spreadsheets and or admin software?

[AndyH]

I think we had one of those as well. I called it Dino the dinosaur and I called the printer room "Jurasic Park".

[Tom Poje]

I have no problem it being posted. the file size if 5000+ KB so it takes forever to upload. I suspect I can no longer post files because of all the security in the office.

For an actual plan - use Relius for cross testing

for studies - use the spreadsheet mainly cuz it is so easy to try different combinations.

for checking data - I will do a hand calc from time to time

by the way, I suspect the spreadsheet has not been updated for the new limits, comp, etc. I'm no excel expert but I did manage to figure out how to add the latest covered comp tables - (used if imputing disparity)

my memories of the Floridata printer - having 2 computers share a printer, and you would look at the individual sitting across from you and 'guess' what report he was printing by the sound - you really could tell.