QDRO

[Guest turbo7]

Exceptional Site - Very Informative:

My rights as an Alternate Payee (AP) have been both ignored & denied. AZ. Legal Separation Decree 9/2003 w/30yrs. relationship, 21+ yrs. to marriage. Parties to retain pension attorney to divide the community interest of all employment related rights, including pension, disability or survivorship benefits by QDRO in Husbands Pension Plan. Date of employment to the date of service, 11/4/02.

Husband retired early 6/2005 @ 62yrs. filed Application for Benefits days before retiring. Delayed retaining pension attorney even after continous reminders/orders by court/attorney's.

07/05 - Husband's first monthly pension benefits includes my benefit amount.

08/05 - Back to court & husb. ordered to immediately hire pension atty.& informed my share of benefits once ordered husb. needs to pay back my awarded amounts.

09/05 - Receive pension atty.'s mailed documents - standard terms and conditions: wants my signatureto agreement, QDRO draft: wants my written approval of the draft Orders, QDRO draft & coverletter already sent to PA where pension atty. informs PA: Order calls for AP to receive her marital interest of the accrued benefit. He followed the Plan's model language although he varied the format slightly, Order prepared as a "separate interest" order & not sure if that option is still available to the AP.

I did not sign any of atty's.documents.

10/05 - Pension atty. had husband issue one of his personal checks to me - awarding me a different benefit amount. Gave no explanation/reason why. Refused Check. Asked husb. why he & atty. refuse to communicate with me & atty. represents his retirement interest only even going as far to take my awarded & entitled benefits.

Court reminds husb. again that he needs to refund my share of the benefits. I'm ordered to call pension atty.

10/31/05 - Leave voice mail for pension atty. - I remind atty. - Court order to equal division to "All" benefits, lengthly relationship, my disappointment in atty.'s refusal to advice/inform/provide/assist/represent my interest into pension plan, and knows nothing of me.

11/05 - Receive Application of Benefits from PA.

11/05 - Call PA next day. Inform PA of no understanding to retirement/pension Plan and his Application of Benefits. Discussed above issues. Told not to accept any form of benefits from husb. or atty., confirmed husb. already receives monthly benefits which he was unaware, thought he received a benefit amount just once. Company attorneys presently reviewing documents which could take a couple months or much longer, will contact me once he (PA) receives info. I'm to return his Application/direct deposit forms only my info. & signed.

Returned documents to PA, with copy to Legal Sep., atty's.,cover letter, divorce attorney's statement equal share of pension.

12/05 - Pension atty. files QDRO w/a complaint - took my words out of context from voice mail. Judge signs & he intials-11/10/05. Date I received PA's forms.

05/06 - I call PA - Plan ? does not represent me anymore. Given New PA locally - Unable to locate me in their system, denied any kind of help from new PA.

06/06 - Call union representative. PA contact name issued & to provide me document to Plan change. PA called - continued to be denied help. Eventually mail an SPD dated 01/1996, but did not contact first PA for my info. as promised. No one could tell me date or why Plan's changed.

01/06 thru present unsuccessful in obtaining legal representation. Told AZ has only three pension attorneys representing union plans.

11/06 - An atty. did contact PA for me. Atty. informs QDRO copy should not qualify as a 'separate order' Husb. receives monthly benefits, send a copy of filed QDRO w/court; send PA certified QDRO asking to determine if order complies w/terms & conditions of the Plan.

12/06 - After Xmas receive from PA - statement that certified Order & pension application copy given to Plan's attorney & actuaries to verify my portion of the pension is calculated correctly and my effective date of payment.

02/07 - Received check statements that Plan has made a direct deposit to my account from 12/05 - 02/07.

03/07 - Received another SPD date of 03/1999 w/ PA's statement that they have completed the processing of my QDRO pension payment. Effective date 12/01/05, direct deposit into my account as I have directed between the first and third of ea. month. If I have questions regarding payment calculation - to contact.

05/07 - On own filed an Appeal to Plan over 30days ago. Still have not heard from them.

Defined Benefit Plan.

I noted QDRO document says: AP may not elect the joint and survivor form of benefit. The following option is elected: single life annuity. I'm about sixteen years younger.

My question is: When & Who else can I appeal to? What documents am I entitled to? Where can I find legal representation/help with above issues? Exhausted AZ. lawyers for union pension plan. AZ. Firms tend to represent companies. Are attorneys advertising on the internet a safe option?

Information to retirement/pension plans is very confusing. What little I know I learned on own and with your websites help.

Won an appeal to the BAR on my divorce attorney, but the BAR dismissed complaint. Truly an injustice the documents speak for themselves. I even have atty's own handwritten document admitting to: (atty's words)

Did not go over her paperwork.

No AFI from Husband or other info.

Appts. lasted minutes.

Knew nothing of her or case.

Bankruptcy attorney & Pension attorney - is a continuation from the beginning of my case.

Any options I can research to save at least the pension benefits are greatly appreciated. Thanks Much.

[Mike Preston]

Wow! My heart aches after reading all that. It sounds like you have attempted to obtain legal representation and have struck out. That is strange because any ERISA attorney would understand the issues that you are dealing with - it does not require that the ERISA attorney understand or even be familiar with union plans. Union plans are just like any other plan sponsored by a corporate entity when it comes to rights of participants and, more importantly, rights of alternate payees.

But, assuming you remain unsuccessful in getting an attorney to represent you, you may benefit from one of the nationwide organizations that provide help to those who request it: The Pension Rights Center, which can be found at http://www.pensionrights.org/help.html may be able to help. The American Academy of Actuaries maintains an active assistance program which you can contact at http://www.actuary.org/palprogram.asp

With that said, do I understand you that you have or had an attorney representing you as to both your pension interest and with respect to a bankruptcy? If so, you may want to confirm with him that the pension benefit you are receiving from your husband's plan is exempt from the claims of the bankruptcy court. That is the normal circumstance.

From what I can gather the plan has, since sometime in 2005, been depositing your pension benefit directly into your bank account. Do I have that right? Are you continuing to receive it?

If the answer to the above questions are "yes" and "yes" it sounds like you are questioning whether the amount of your pension benefit is correct, not that they have completely denied your claim to a benefit. Is that correct?

I hope you get somebody to help you get to the bottom of this, even if it means that you don't get an increase: you deserve some peace of mind that the benefit you are receiving is the proper one.

[Guest turbo7]

Mike;

Thank-You for your response to questions I’ve submitted. Sorry for the delay in reply.

Message(s) would pop-up instead of a blank area so I could not type my reply. Shown what do to. Then numerous times my reply disappeared after I clicked mouse, not sure why. Basics of computers and internet learning still.

Appreciate related information. Both the NPLN and PAL, I have requested help from.

Contacted all referrals most area of practice was - employment also told representing pension cases over is a great expense. PAL Program Request for Assistance form did provide twice and received no response(s).

Sorry for the miscommunication. BK is a separate issue - Bankruptcy attorney husband retained September 2005. Filed Jointly. Husbands separate debts I also was accountable for.

10/2002 – Divorce filed originally.

06/2003 – Judge changed to Legal separation. Decree filed 09/03, ordered husband to use funds from a community property sale to retain pension attorney to prepare the QDRO and to mutually retain a bankruptcy attorney (file jointly) and any remaining funds after payment to each attorney shall equally be divided between the parties, 50/50.

11/2003 – Third hearing in case. Request an appeal - No response from my attorney. Pension dislosure one issue.

05/2004 – Filed complaint w/BAR

10/2004 – Non profit org. agrees to represent legal separation case over – attorney to busy/sick. June 2005, unable to proceed case. Still no retirement/pension info.

08/2005 – File Enforcement of Decree of Legal Separation against husband.

Please Note: Above Post (#1) 08/05

Decree ordering husband to retain both bankruptcy/pension attorney(s) takes him over 2+ years. Husband already receiving a monthly benefit amount. Pension attorney retained/paid by husband for “joint representation” Was not informed by husband. I never meet and/ or communicated w/ pension attorney. (just a voice mail).

Please Note: Above Post (#1) 09/05, 10/05

Pension attorney mails to me a copy of: Stipulated QDRO postmarked Nov.10, 2005. Same date I receive by mail from a pension administrator (PA) a form for Application for Retirement & Authorization for Direct Bank Deposit.

Call PA next day.

PA reassured me once he receives paperwork/documents in my case, will review for accuracy/completeness and fill in and provide any missing information needed on my Application for Retirement.

Case reviewed by Plans legal department. Informed, review process could take a very long time, even up to a few months.

May 2006 - When I did not hear from PA, as promised, I place a call to him. Told I’m no longer being represented by Plan. When questioned PA unsure why and when Plans had changed. Merger? Terminated?

Referred to new PA located in Phoenix, AZ – I'm denied assistance from PA b/c I cannot be found in their system. Called a union representative for help and disclosed my problem to him. Apologetic, should already been provided certain information from Plan. Confirmed I had ‘no change of address ’. Union Rep. provides a direct PA contact. who I call – again cannot be found in system including husband. I offer to submit certain documents that could be of help to PA - refused them and I'm again denied their Plan's assistance.

Keep in mind that I continue to be denied my rights/information to husband’s retirement/pension plan. Plan name, type and benefit amount(s) information I’m also being denied even after repeated request on own.

11/2006 -While researching to retain counsel an attorney offers to meet w/me. Examines - Decree, QDRO (draft) and places a call to new PA.

Instructed to: Send certified copy to plan. Have plan provide answers: Was the QDRO filed w/court and if so did judge sign? Did Plan get certified copy of QDRO?

Told QDRO should not be qualified by Plan. Husband receiving benefit payments since July 2005. Should hear and/ or receive an answer in about one week from Plan, when not qualified.

Response from PA (AZ.) did not come till after Xmas.

Please Note: Above Post (#1) 12/06

Without my knowledge a direct deposit was made into my bank account.

Total Amount of Check is from Dec.1, 2005 thru Feb.1, 2007

No Withholdings - Federal or AZ. State made.

Client/Plan – 3798/DEE-03FERRER (on earnings statement)

I receive about $500.00 less a month than husband.

Husband has received other benefit amounts additional to his monthly benefit(s).

Please Note: 02/07, 03/07

Thirty year relationship, fifteen years younger, soc, sec. disability receive for the last 10+

Everyone connected to my case failed to see that the proper processes were followed to protect my rights in the fund. Even when legally obligated to do so.

Just request a fair and equitable division of pension benefits.

Appeal filed 45 days ago w/Plan – Send certified copy of Legal Separation Decree. Received no response as of yet.

Can anyone tell me what Plan I’m under from above (Client/Plan)

How long should I wait for Plan to respond to my appeal?

How should I proceed?

Should I just have another QDRO prepared complying w/ legal separation decree?

I don’t even understand present QDRO document.

Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks

[Mike Preston]

It sounds like you are indeed continuing to receive your pension, which is $500/month less than what you believe your ex-spouse is receiving.

Therefore what you are looking for is some sort of comfort that the amount was determined accurately.

If you word your request to the PAL in that manner, you may have more success getting somebody to respond. That is, something like: I am looking for somebody to double-check the calculation of my pension benefit from the xxxxxx plan. While I am receiving a monthly benefit of $xxxx, I have reason to believe that it should be higher, due to the long-standing nature of my relationship with the annuitant (30+ years), the disparity of $500/month seems large to me.

You say that you filed a claim with the plan and you also say that you don't know the legal name of the plan. Those two statements can not both be accurate, because you need to know the name of the plan in order to file a claim.

If you truly don't know the name of the plan I encourage you to telephone the people you describe as the "PA" and ask them to provide you with the complete legal name of the plan. Also ask them to provide you with a copy of the Summary Plan Description and a copy of the Plan Document. You may need to request the two documents in writing.

Armed with that information, your ex-spouse's legal name and Social Security Number, an attorney or other individual that has agreed to help you can contact the plan on your behalf to gather additional information, if it is necessary.

Good luck.

[Guest turbo7]

Mike - Thanks Again for Taking the Time to Respond,

Without prior notification I received by mail in February 2007 Earnings Statement (Deposit Advice Only) from the Plan Administrator (PA) having made a direct deposit into my bank account – a lump sum payment; my effective payment date: December 2005. During the eighteen months husband had been receiving his benefits I was trying to obtain information to his retirement/pension plan. Husbands first monthly benefit check has been issued since July 2005.

I learned of pension plan name when I received by mail - Application for Retirement & Authorization for Direct Bank Deposit from the Plan Administrator (PA) in November 2005. I’m assuming Plan had received pension attorneys QDRO draft.

PA reassured me once he receives paperwork/documents in my case, presently with Plans legal department, PA would contact me to explain my entitlement to benefits and make the necessary changes to my Application for Benefits.

Six months later - I called Plan Administrator (PA) only to be informed that they are no longer the company offering my pension benefit plan and referred me to another Plan Administrator.

I was not given notice to plan amendments/changes and every one I contacted was unable to tell me what had transpired and when in 2005 - changes to Plan Administrator.

When present Plan Administrator could not find me in their system, I was denied information about the (my) Plan and Benefits (6/2006).

I provided the Plan Administrator with a certified copy of QDRO in Nov. 2006 and asked that on receipt of this document to please determine whether or /not the Order complies with the condition of the Plan and if QDRO draft was ever presented to the Plan.

Plan replied twice w/ notices mailed – (1) rec'd notice a month later (12/2006) Plan is calculating my portion of the pension & my effective date of payment.

Received mail in February 2007 Earnings Statement from PA of the direct deposit.

(2) March 2007 benefit booklet (SPD) and notice rec'd - Plan had completed the processing of your(my) QDRO pension payment and at my direction have payment directly deposited into my account or mailed to my home between the first and third day of each month.

I have no idea where the Plan has that information from – above paragraph number (2) March 2007 states at my direction have payment directly deposited…………….etc.

I have never received and or submitted any forms/applications to present Plan Administrator – my offer to assist Plan and obtain Plan information were refused by present Plan Administrator June 2006. Plan has replied twice which I note above.

Unaware that a QDRO was filed with the court in Dec. 2005, document did not contain the Plans, husband and/or my signature(s).

Court ordered husband to retain pension attorney in 2003 “jointly” to divide the community interest of all employment related rights, including pension, disability or survivorship benefits by QDRO.

Pension attorney in September 2005 represents husband’s interest to retirement/pension benefits and failed to protect my rights in the plan and changed/ignored the terms of the legal separation decree.

QDRO states: The Plan is hereby order to pay to the AP the benefit in the Plan as set forth above in accordance with one of the options provided in the Plan and as the AP shall shall elect, except that the AP may not elect the joint and survivor form of benefit. The following option is elected: single life annuity.

The payments that are required to be made to the AP are based on the life expectancy of the AP.

Document was prepared /submitted without my knowledge – received copy after the fact.

QDRO should not qualify – especially since husbands benefit payments commenced in 07/2005 before he retained pension attorney. I will not accept a benefit payment of $500.00 a month less than husband. Vested, cost of living are other benefits husband is entitled to – DB union pension plan.

I have the name of the pension plan but not what benefit plan I was given by the Plan Administrator (Sorry) On Earning Statement received Feb. 2007 it has under -

Client/Plan: 3798DEE-03FERRER I have no idea what that means.??

I’m on my own – my appeal w/certified copy of the legal separation decree was filed about 70 days ago with no word from the Plan.

I immediately contacted PAL with your suggestion. Great Advice!

How long before Plan has to acknowledge my appeal? – If no response from Plan, do I appeal again to them?

Should I have another QDRO prepared/modified?

Thanks for Your Time,

Berna (Trying to shorten response)

[Mike Preston]

Berna,

The problem with trying to collapse a mountain of information into a single post on this bulletin board is that something always gets a little lost in translation. There just is no way that you can lay out 100% of the information necessary for somebody to definitively help you.

It sounds like you ackowledge that the plan sent you the Summary Plan Description. That document should have the legal name of the plan in it and it should have the name/address of the Plan Administrator in it. It should have the name/address of where to send a claim for benefits (or a claim for a recalculation of benefits). It should also describe the appeal procedure you must follow in order for the plan to consider an appeal from you, assuming that the plan initially denies your claim.

I strongly encourage you to have all documents that you have, including notes as to when telephone conversations took place and what was said during those telephone conversations, reviewed by somebody who can explain things to you to your satisfaction.

You haven't given us your age and your ex-spouse's age, but I can tell you one of the reasons why your monthly benefit may be less than his. *IF* you are younger than your ex-spouse, since your benefit is being determined based on your age, the actuarial tables say that you are likely to live longer and therefore the monthly benefit you would get, all other things being equal, would be less. Whether $500 less is correct or not isn't something that can be answered here, but I did want you to be aware that since your payments are based on your life, and not the life of your ex-spouse (which means they will continue as long as you live and not stop if your ex-spouse dies), the amount of the payment would correctly be adjusted (downward) to account for your longer life expectancy if you are indeed younger than your ex-spouse.

To recap: the SPD has the information you seek about what to do and when to do it, in order to properly time your appeal for additional benefits.

If the plan refuses to respond to you in the timeframes mentioned in the SPD, then the SPD will indicate (or at least it should indicate) that you can take the non-response as meaning the same thing as an affirmative response that your claim has been denied. You could then follow the procedures outlined in the SPD for appealing a denied claim.

At the same time that you are filing a claim to the plan or filing an appeal of a denial of a previous claim to the plan, you should be following up with somebody who can explain things to you to your satisfaction. I understand that this may be easier said than done. Certainly, if you hire a pension attorney they should be able to do so, although the expense may be significant.

The advantage of hiring your own pension attorney at this point would be that should it be necessary to serve the plan with a lawsuit to protect your interests, the attorney can help you with that process. If you hire a pension consultant, they may be able to help you understand things, but they may not (in fact, probably will not) be able to help you protect your rights through the courts.

I hope you succeed in getting the help that you are looking for.

mike

[Guest turbo7]

Mike - Thanks Much,

This is very new to me; my first time posting on a site. Also very tired.

Age difference - Husband 64yrs (1943), I'm 48yrs (1958) & disabled. Invested alot of years since age sixteen; when we first met.

Biggest Problem is I have not been explained or given any retirement/pension information or the benefit amount(s). When Plan Administrator was unable to locate my account told I was not entitled to benefits.

Legal Separation Decree entitles me to 50% of all employment related rights: (pension,disability,survivorship benefits). QDRO includes the following language:

Single Life Annuity based on Alternate Payee's life expectancy and 'I may not elect the joint and survivor form of benefit'.

I rec'd no response from either Plan Administrator with a determination of whether the order is a QDRO. I feel QDRO does not conform to the Decree and husband has been receiving monthly benefits since 7/05. Without prior knowledge a lump sum payment was deposited into my bank account in Feb. of this year and

Dec. 2005 should have been my effective payment date.

I'm fighting for my rightful share of the benfits.

I Filed w/ Plan - Attn: Claims, Appeal - Request For Equitable Relief.

I'm writing to have Plan send me all the documents I'm entitled (again) and to please explain my calculated benefit amount and how it was determined.

The pension is all I have left. If what I'm currently receiving is a good deal I'm OK with it.

Thanks,

Berna

[Mike Preston]

Berna,

It looks like you are, actuarially speaking, either 15 or 16 years younger than your ex (depending on what time of the year the measurement is taken and how the plan in question deals with age determinations when a partial age is involved).

A 15 or 16 year age difference is quite significant. All other things being equal you can expect that a benefit based on your life will be significantly lower than a benefit based on your ex-spouse's life.

It also sounds like he continued to work between your divorce and the time he retired. Any benefit he is getting based on that period of employment is probably not being included in your share of benefits.

mike