Calavera Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 From Defined Benefit Answer Book Q19:104 Example: The funding target of $1,452,362, in Q 19:102, is used in this example. The value of assets in the plan as of December 31, 2007 is $1,000,000. The plan had a funding standard carryover balance of $100,000. Therefore, the value of assets to use is $900,000. The transition rule from Q 19:105 is used, so the funding target is multiplied by 92 percent, or $1,336,173. The shortfall amortization base is equal to $1,336,173 less $900,000, or $436,173. This base is amortized over seven years using the segment rates in effect. Since there are two segment rates in effect over a seven-year period (the first segment rate is effective for the first five years, and the second is effective for the last two years), the calculation of the amortization is a little more complicated. The present value at each year must be calculated using the particular rate, and then added together... I thought the transition rule (i.e 92% of target liability) is used for the exemption from the shortfall amortization calculation. But if not exempt, full target liability is used to calculate the shortfall and the shortfall amortization base. Did I miss some corrections, explanations, etc. that stated that 92% of the funding target could be used to calculate a shortfall amortization base?
SoCalActuary Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 You are correct. The book is wrong. Shhhhh. It happens.
Andy the Actuary Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 With or without my disclaimer, I also offer my unfettered opinion that you've got it right. The material provided and the opinions expressed in this post are for general informational purposes only and should not be used or relied upon as the basis for any action or inaction. You should obtain appropriate tax, legal, or other professional advice.
ak2ary Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 If you read the statute, it seems in one section that it says what the Answer Book says...prolly the reason for the mistake. But yes I agree with the others use 100% of the funding target to calc the shortfall
mwyatt Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Just perused the 2009 DB Answer Book which arrived at my desk this morning. Check out Q19:104; they're using 92% of FT less Assets to define shortfall amortization base. Curious...
Andy the Actuary Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 The DB Pension Answer Book author is an EA and probably wouldn't mind being contacted (I'm too busy posting meaningless puzzles). The material provided and the opinions expressed in this post are for general informational purposes only and should not be used or relied upon as the basis for any action or inaction. You should obtain appropriate tax, legal, or other professional advice.
david rigby Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Don't forget that the test for exemption from shortfall amortization is based on AVA minus prefunding balance (not carryover balance). I'm a retirement actuary. Nothing about my comments is intended or should be construed as investment, tax, legal or accounting advice. Occasionally, but not all the time, it might be reasonable to interpret my comments as actuarial or consulting advice.
tymesup Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 The DB Pension Answer Book author is an EA and probably wouldn't mind being contacted (I'm too busy posting meaningless puzzles). I dropped him a line.
Guest RRO Posted January 20, 2009 Posted January 20, 2009 I would like to resurrect this thread to ask a specific question that refers to David Rigby's comment that the shortfall exemption is based on AV less prefunding balance only. There is a statement in 430(f)(4)(A) that says that for purposes of the exemption in 430©(5), the value of plan assets is such amount, reduced by the prefunding balance, but only if an election is made to apply any portion of the prefunding balance to reduce the minimum required contribution for the plan year. My question is how to apply this in 2008 when there are no prefunding balances. I have the following situation: TNC = 300,000 FT = 2,600,000 AV = 3,500,000 COB = 1,200,000 PFB = 0 Assets of 3,500,000 are clearly greater than the funding target even before application of the 92% transition, but assets less COB (2,300,000) are clearly less than 92% of the funding target (2,392,000). There is a funding shortfall under 430©(4), but does the exemption under 430©(5) apply? Is this plan required to set up a shortfall base in 2008?
Andy the Actuary Posted January 20, 2009 Posted January 20, 2009 I would like to resurrect this thread to ask a specific question that refers to David Rigby's comment that the shortfall exemption is based on AV less prefunding balance only. There is a statement in 430(f)(4)(A) that says that for purposes of the exemption in 430©(5), the value of plan assets is such amount, reduced by the prefunding balance, but only if an election is made to apply any portion of the prefunding balance to reduce the minimum required contribution for the plan year.My question is how to apply this in 2008 when there are no prefunding balances. I have the following situation: TNC = 300,000 FT = 2,600,000 AV = 3,500,000 COB = 1,200,000 PFB = 0 Assets of 3,500,000 are clearly greater than the funding target even before application of the 92% transition, but assets less COB (2,300,000) are clearly less than 92% of the funding target (2,392,000). There is a funding shortfall under 430©(4), but does the exemption under 430©(5) apply? Is this plan required to set up a shortfall base in 2008? FTAP=(3,500,000 - 0) / 2,600,000 > 92% so no SAB or SAC. The TNC is not included in the calculation. The material provided and the opinions expressed in this post are for general informational purposes only and should not be used or relied upon as the basis for any action or inaction. You should obtain appropriate tax, legal, or other professional advice.
Guest RRO Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 Thanks Andy. So, if I understand your calculation, you are applying the ©(5) exemption and adjusting the assets for the prefunding balance only, not the carryover balance as required in 430©(4), correct? And I agree, the TNC is extraneous information that doesn't come into play for this calculation.
Andy the Actuary Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 Thanks Andy. So, if I understand your calculation, you are applying the ©(5) exemption and adjusting the assets for the prefunding balance only, not the carryover balance as required in 430©(4), correct? And I agree, the TNC is extraneous information that doesn't come into play for this calculation. Yes, and it is near impossible (at least for me) to keep this stuff straight, in particular since the shortfall is computed by subtracting out both the FSCOB and prefunding. I speak with full confidence as I recite from my crib sheet!!!!! Of course, the fun part is you only subtract the PFB if it will be used to offset the minimum contribution, which you may not know at the time you make the calculation. The material provided and the opinions expressed in this post are for general informational purposes only and should not be used or relied upon as the basis for any action or inaction. You should obtain appropriate tax, legal, or other professional advice.
Guest RRO Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 So, 430(f)(4)(A) and 1.430(f)-1©(2)(i) are telling me that for purposes of the shortfall base exemption, the prefunding balance is only subtracted from the assets if any portion of it is used toward the minimum contribution, and 1.430(f)-1©(2)(ii) tells me that the FSCOB is never subtracted even if no portion of it or the prefunding balance is used toward the minimum. Therefore, in my situation, the assets of 3,500,000 exceed the funding target, so the exemption would apply if I can assume that I am using a portion of the prefunding balance toward the minimum contribution. But, 430(f)(3)(B) and 1.430(f)-1(d)(2) tell me that, if a FSCOB exists, no amount of the prefunding balance can be used toward the minimum until the FSCOB is used up. Does this imply that if I have a FSCOB remaining at the end of the plan year after using it as allowed for the various purposes that it can be used for, that I can't assume the use of the prefunding balance to reduce the minimum and, therefore, the 430©(5) exemption does not apply?
Andy the Actuary Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 So, 430(f)(4)(A) and 1.430(f)-1©(2)(i) are telling me that for purposes of the shortfall base exemption, the prefunding balance is only subtracted from the assets if any portion of it is used toward the minimum contribution, and 1.430(f)-1©(2)(ii) tells me that the FSCOB is never subtracted even if no portion of it or the prefunding balance is used toward the minimum. Therefore, in my situation, the assets of 3,500,000 exceed the funding target, so the exemption would apply if I can assume that I am using a portion of the prefunding balance toward the minimum contribution. But, 430(f)(3)(B) and 1.430(f)-1(d)(2) tell me that, if a FSCOB exists, no amount of the prefunding balance can be used toward the minimum until the FSCOB is used up. Does this imply that if I have a FSCOB remaining at the end of the plan year after using it as allowed for the various purposes that it can be used for, that I can't assume the use of the prefunding balance to reduce the minimum and, therefore, the 430©(5) exemption does not apply? The exemption applies so long as you're not using the PFB to reduce contributions. You cannot use the PFB before the FSCOB. Of course, you are not required to create a PFB. The material provided and the opinions expressed in this post are for general informational purposes only and should not be used or relied upon as the basis for any action or inaction. You should obtain appropriate tax, legal, or other professional advice.
Guest RRO Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 Ah - so as long as there is a FSCOB, the exemption will apply.
carrots Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 From Defined Benefit Answer Book Q19:104Example: The funding target of $1,452,362, in Q 19:102, is used in this example. The value of assets in the plan as of December 31, 2007 is $1,000,000. The plan had a funding standard carryover balance of $100,000. Therefore, the value of assets to use is $900,000. The transition rule from Q 19:105 is used, so the funding target is multiplied by 92 percent, or $1,336,173. The shortfall amortization base is equal to $1,336,173 less $900,000, or $436,173. This base is amortized over seven years using the segment rates in effect. Since there are two segment rates in effect over a seven-year period (the first segment rate is effective for the first five years, and the second is effective for the last two years), the calculation of the amortization is a little more complicated. The present value at each year must be calculated using the particular rate, and then added together... I thought the transition rule (i.e 92% of target liability) is used for the exemption from the shortfall amortization calculation. But if not exempt, full target liability is used to calculate the shortfall and the shortfall amortization base. Did I miss some corrections, explanations, etc. that stated that 92% of the funding target could be used to calculate a shortfall amortization base? I apologise for re-resurrecting this if it has been covered elsewhere, but the author of the DB Answer Book may be prescient. Under the amendments provided by WRERA, it is now correct, for 2008, to use 92% of the funding target in the calculation of the shortfall amortization base!
Andy the Actuary Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 Yes, provided plan was not subject to deficit reduction contributon in 2007. The material provided and the opinions expressed in this post are for general informational purposes only and should not be used or relied upon as the basis for any action or inaction. You should obtain appropriate tax, legal, or other professional advice.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now