Plan name change

[Santo Gold]

When a company changes its name, can it also change the name of its retirement Plan? I didn't realize that the answer is apparantly "no", but when filing a 5500 showing a new company name and plan name, it keeps getting kicked out of the EFAST system because of the plan name change. Is this correct, can't change a plan name?

[david rigby]

Changing the name of the plan is (usually) accomplished via plan amendment. So, the governing authority can amend the plan to change the name any time it desires.

However, your question might be related to the "inner workings" of the EFAST system.

[Santo Gold]

And that is exactly what was done with the PPA document restatement for this 401k plan. We changed the company and plan name. But after talking to the DOL today via the EFAST website, I was told that the Z-003 error message pertained to the change in plan name and, sounding rather convincing, pointed me to page 15 of the instructions which would state that the plan name must match the plan name from the prior year's return. The instructions do in fact state that the plan name should match last year's plan name and I did not see anywhere (in the instructions) that an amendment to change the name is acceptable.

[mphs77]

If the Employer's Name changed did the EIN change as well?

[Santo Gold]

Employer ID number did not change.

[Bill Presson]

I've never had an issue with changing the name. Did you complete the question that asked if the Plan sponsor name/EIN changed since last return?

[Santo Gold]

Yes, I did check that the employer name changed. The error message is referencing the plan name being different though. No place to check for that......

[Belgarath]

Who is your 5500 software vendor? Perhaps this is a problem related to their specific software? I haven't heard of this being an issue before. Have you checked with them?

[Bill Presson]

Yes, I did check that the employer name changed. The error message is referencing the plan name being different though. No place to check for that......

Agreed that there's no place to check, but I was thinking that might be a flag for a reason the plan name would change. I've never had an issue on the 5500 when changing the plan name, even if the employer name didn't change

[Lou S.]

I've never had an issue in the past. Is this new?

[Tom Poje]

or I suppose, and I could see myself doing this:

mis-typing last year's name

[Santo Gold]

The 5500 software did flag this as an error. Once it was uploaded to EFAST we validated it and the error message keeps catching it. As I said, I talked to someone at the DOL/EFAST about this and twice he confirmed that in fact this is a correct error message (Z-003). But, I know that he is not correct, at least when he says that changing the plan name means that this is a new plan, therefore needs a new plan number, need to terminate the old plan, etc.

[jpod]

Ugh: Your tax dollars at work. Remind me to never let a client change the name of its plan.

[Belgarath]

Time to bump it up to a supervisor.

[Santo Gold]

The 5500 software did flag this as an error. Once it was uploaded to EFAST we validated it and the error message keeps catching it. As I said, I talked to someone at the DOL/EFAST about this and twice he confirmed that in fact this is a correct error message (Z-003). But, I know that he is not correct, at least when he says that changing the plan name means that this is a new plan, therefore needs a new plan number, need to terminate the old plan, etc.

I meant to say the 5500 software DID NOT flag this as an error. Its the DOL/EFAST that once it was uploaded to that site, indicated there was a problem.

[My 2 cents]

Time to bump it up to a supervisor.

It is (or should be) impossible that EFAST cannot handle changes in the names of plans. Utterly ridiculous and everyone reading this thread knows it. If there is no satisfaction to be had, go up the chain as high as necessary. Having an error flag for a change in the plan name is, plain and simple, a bug. At most it should be a warning.

[jpod]

As long as that bug is exterminated by July 30, or October 14 . . . .

[Kevin C]

You should also contact ASPPA GAC about this.

Was this a 2015 filing? We had a client amend their 401(k) plan into a KSOP at 1/1/14 and change the plan name. So far, there have not been any issues with their 2014 filing.

[Calavera]

Our 2014 filing when EIN, plan name, and plan sponsor changed didn't generate any errors. The difference in this case would be that EIN was changed as well. I just had discussion with DOL where they told me that I would need to mark prior filing as a final and start new filing with new plan name. It just doesn't make sense. I will not be able to start new filing using the same EIN and Plan Number. In my case it will impact 2016 filing, therefore I have plenty of time (I hope) for DOL to reconsider and fix their bug, or provide more guidance.

[Santo Gold]

You should also contact ASPPA GAC about this.

Was this a 2015 filing? We had a client amend their 401(k) plan into a KSOP at 1/1/14 and change the plan name. So far, there have not been any issues with their 2014 filing.

This was a 2015 filing. I am sure I have had plan name changes in the past and this never came up. Sounds like it is new for 2015.

[Santo Gold]

Our 2014 filing when EIN, plan name, and plan sponsor changed didn't generate any errors. The difference in this case would be that EIN was changed as well. I just had discussion with DOL where they told me that I would need to mark prior filing as a final and start new filing with new plan name. It just doesn't make sense. I will not be able to start new filing using the same EIN and Plan Number. In my case it will impact 2016 filing, therefore I have plenty of time (I hope) for DOL to reconsider and fix their bug, or provide more guidance.

This is what DOL told me as well, for the 2015 filing. I may try "kicking it upstairs" when I call back again.

[My 2 cents]

Our 2014 filing when EIN, plan name, and plan sponsor changed didn't generate any errors. The difference in this case would be that EIN was changed as well. I just had discussion with DOL where they told me that I would need to mark prior filing as a final and start new filing with new plan name. It just doesn't make sense. I will not be able to start new filing using the same EIN and Plan Number. In my case it will impact 2016 filing, therefore I have plenty of time (I hope) for DOL to reconsider and fix their bug, or provide more guidance.

This is what DOL told me as well, for the 2015 filing. I may try "kicking it upstairs" when I call back again.

When you call back again, take the position that any changes made to EFAST that prevent recognition of changed plan names were made in error and should be undone. The DOL cannot legitimately assert that you need to treat the plan after the name change as a separate plan for filing purposes with a new plan number. Respectfully insist that they facilitate changing the name on EFAST as before.

[Guest Laura A Anderson]

This is a new message for 2015. According to the "green book" (Form 5500 Preparer's Manual), it's one of a new series of "entity control" checks that the DOL is using to make sure data is reported consistently/accurately from year to year.

The Z-003 error is actually a "Warning" level, so in theory you should still be able to get past it and file the return (you may get an ugly message at first, but the 5500 should be able to go through).

If the DOL is going to treat these as true errors, I agree this is something they need to address quickly. Plan names can change without the plan itself changing, and filing a final return would seem to create more problems.

[Mike Preston]

Seem?

[Santo Gold]

This is a new message for 2015. According to the "green book" (Form 5500 Preparer's Manual), it's one of a new series of "entity control" checks that the DOL is using to make sure data is reported consistently/accurately from year to year.

The Z-003 error is actually a "Warning" level, so in theory you should still be able to get past it and file the return (you may get an ugly message at first, but the 5500 should be able to go through).

If the DOL is going to treat these as true errors, I agree this is something they need to address quickly. Plan names can change without the plan itself changing, and filing a final return would seem to create more problems.

I was able to file it as is, but when I review my submissions ("filed" forms) for all clients, under the STATUS column, it says "filing received" for all of my plans, but this is the only one that I can still "click" on, and when I do, I get the Z-003 message.

So, based on what Laura A has stated, this is a warning, not an error, the filing was "received".... is there anything for me to complain about other than I don't like having a filed form with a warning message attached to it?

[thepensionmaven]

Now I'm ready to throw my hands in the air.

I have a dentist client whose practice is in two locations, both employers adopt the one plan in the name of PLLC #1 and is PLLC #! 401K plan with PLLC #2 a second employer under PLLC #1 plan.

In 2015 he merges the two practices into PLLC #2 and PLC #1 collapsed.

Past experience with IRS (no experience yet with DOL), Form 8822-B completed, Form 5500 filed under remaining PLLC #2, line 4 asks for old employer and plan information, which we give.

Five months after Form 5500 filed, an IRS Penalty letter is generated because they have not received Form 5500 for the original plan.

Of course, this takes five months to be straightened out.

Why does Form 5500 ask for the prior employer and plan number if that line is not being read??

[pmacduff]

I have a submission to EFAST where only the plan name changed. When I got the same error as Santo (Z-003) I called EFAST and was also referred to the instructions where he said it basically says you can't change the Plan name. So I said to the guy, "You're telling me that you can NEVER change the name of a Plan?!"

He asked me to wait, put me on hold and said he would call the DOL and connect me to someone. After a short (5 minute or so) wait he came back on the line and said he couldn't connect with anyone but had left a message on the voice mail with my information and that someone form the DOL would contact me.

I'll let you know if I get a call back......

[Bill Presson]

I have a submission to EFAST where only the plan name changed. When I got the same error as Santo (Z-003) I called EFAST and was also referred to the instructions where he said it basically says you can't change the Plan name. So I said to the guy, "You're telling me that you can NEVER change the name of a Plan?!"

He asked me to wait, put me on hold and said he would call the DOL and connect me to someone. After a short (5 minute or so) wait he came back on the line and said he couldn't connect with anyone but had left a message on the voice mail with my information and that someone form the DOL would contact me.

I'll let you know if I get a call back......

I'm really looking forward to this!!

WCP

[My 2 cents]

1,715,233, 1,715,234, 1,715,235, 1,715,236,...

[pmacduff]

Thought I would post an update....

still haven't received a call back [as I think we all anticipated ]

However I did file the form with the "new" plan name and have now looked at the filing online (without signing into EFAST with my login) and the filing is there and looks fine.

I realize that doesn't mean the employer might not yet get a letter but hopefully it's all set!

[My 2 cents]

1,715,233, 1,715,234, 1,715,235, 1,715,236,...

Thought I would post an update....

still haven't received a call back [as I think we all anticipated ]

However I did file the form with the "new" plan name and have now looked at the filing online (without signing into EFAST with my login) and the filing is there and looks fine.

I realize that doesn't mean the employer might not yet get a letter but hopefully it's all set!

...2,476,514, 2,476,515, 2,476,516...

[Kevin C]

Our 2014 filing when EIN, plan name, and plan sponsor changed didn't generate any errors. The difference in this case would be that EIN was changed as well. I just had discussion with DOL where they told me that I would need to mark prior filing as a final and start new filing with new plan name. It just doesn't make sense. I will not be able to start new filing using the same EIN and Plan Number. In my case it will impact 2016 filing, therefore I have plenty of time (I hope) for DOL to reconsider and fix their bug, or provide more guidance.

This is what DOL told me as well, for the 2015 filing. I may try "kicking it upstairs" when I call back again.

If they don't fix this nonsense, we have several plans that will be in the same situation in a couple of years. Have you pointed out to the DOL that filing a final 5500 for the old plan name would include falsely indicating that a resolution to terminate the plan has been adopted, falsely indicating that the plan has no participants and no assets at year end and falsely indicating that all assets were transferred to another plan? The 5500 is signed under penalty of perjury. In most cases, I would comply with whatever nonsense the DOL or IRS representative wants just to get the matter closed. But, not with something like this.

[Belgarath]

We are going to have a similar situation soon. Employer was an S-corp - just recently changed to an LLC taxed as an S-corp. Same business, employees, etc., but a new employer name and EIN. Anyone heard anything more about this issue?

[My 2 cents]

We are going to have a similar situation soon. Employer was an S-corp - just recently changed to an LLC taxed as an S-corp. Same business, employees, etc., but a new employer name and EIN. Anyone heard anything more about this issue?

...17,515,345, 17,515,346, 17,515,347...

Everyone's been too busy with the election. Maybe someone will get to it tomorrow.

[Belgarath]

Is there an election of some sort? For what?

[ESOP Guy]

Is there an election of some sort? For what?

Which POTUS candidate will embarrass us the most the next 4 years.

I used to joke in the past about wanting a "none of the above" choice on a ballot. This year I am serious I want one of the ballot.

(I know one shouldn't get too political on this board as it is one of the few safe places so sorry if I offended anyone up front.)

[Cindy H]

Was this issue ever resolved?

[MrsMacias]

• I'm curious about this as well. We have 3 clients that recently received letters requesting their 2017 plan #002 filings. None of these plans have a #002 plan. However, all 3 were clients that had a plan name and EIN change in 2016 or 2017 that was reported on Line 4 of the 5500.