457f Substantial Risk of Forfeiture

[austin3515]

I understand that the IRS position is that amounts are not subject to a substantial risk of forfeiture if the future service is less than 2 years.  So lets say all contriubtions made between 2020 and 2025 will vest on 12/31/2025.  What about contributions that accrued during 2024 and 2025?  I can;t find anything that addresses this precise scenario.  Obviously overall there is a significant risk of forfeiture with this arrangement.  But is there a significant risk with respect to the 2024 and 2025 contributions?  Has the IRS ever addressed this?  I think in practice this is quite common because "cliff vesting" is quite common.

[rr_sphr]

I'm curious as to when the deferral election will be made and if it can be revoked between now and the year the deferral starts. Now or just before the plan year starts?  Wonder if that would make a difference in your question.  If they are electing at the end of 2024, I have to agree with you that it wouldn't seem 2025 has a significant risk....

 

[austin3515]

There is no deferral election.  The Organization is contributing an employer contribution of $10,00 a quarter in my example.  The first quarter is 3/31/2020, and the last I suppose could theoretically be 12/31/2025.  The question is, is substantial risk of forfeiture applied to each deposit separately (in which case the latest contriubtions seem problematic) or can it be applied to the scheme as a whole, in which case there is a clear substantial risk of forfeiture.

Hopefully what I'm driving at is clear enough...

 

[Luke Bailey]

austin3515, the rule you are referring to is in the proposed regs, but only for circumstances where amounts are redeferred. See Prop. Reg. sec. 1.457-12(e)(2)(iii). In the circumstance you describe it does not apply.

[austin3515]

Now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure someone was using that as a guideline for a minimum time frame that would be considered "substantial."

But you don;t have a problem with what I laid out above?

[Luke Bailey]

If the deferral occurs annually from 2020 through 2025 and you have to be employed in 2025 or you forfeit for all years, that is SRF for all of the deferrals.