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December 4, 2025

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Appalachian_Trail created a topic in Retirement Plans in General

ASG: Are Schools/Day Cares Service Organizations?

"If a company is in the business of offering early childhood education (infant to pre-K), kindergarten, before and after school programs, and summer programs do you think that constitutes a service organization? I've reviewed the Who's the Employer's ASG chapter and conducted supplementary research, but I can't find anything on-point. I know educational services do not count as consulting, so that avenue is closed. I lean towards concluding that the school is a service organization because the material income producing part of their business is the teachers' services, rather than capital. But I could be persuaded the other way too."

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KaJay created a topic in Retirement Plans in General

Wrong Definition of Compensation Used to Calculate Deferrals in Multiple Employer Plan

"Background:

  • 403(b)(9) non-electing church plan
  • Multiple employer plan
  • The plan (not the 700 individual participating employers) sets the definition of compensation when it comes to calculating contributions based on a percentage.
  • This one employer used the wrong definition of comp and consequently shorted deferral contributions for the employee since 2021 (yikes)

I am unsure what correction method is appropriate and didn't find anything specific in Rev. Proc. 2021-30. I also read a page on the IRS website that states the plan can amend the definition of compensation, but that does not seem reasonable with a multiple employer plan where there is one definition for all employers to follow. How does the employer fix this? Can the employer provide an employer contribution for 50% of missed deferral portion? Is there something clear cut I am missing? TIA for your responses."

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erisageek1978 created a topic in 409A Issues

Correction of SAR Grant Below FMV

"Plan granted SARs with exercise price below FMV. Grant was in 2020, vested in 2021, 2022, and 2023. No rights have been exercised. Notice 2008-113 provides for correction only if correction is made in year of grant or by end of year following year of grant. If no rights have been exercised, is it possible to still use 2008-113? Also, now that we're in 409A land, what if the SAR grant satisfies all the requirements of 409A, meaning [1] specifies number of SARs granted [2] specifies exercise period (5 years from vesting date) [3] specifies exercise price. Or, is this not sufficient since there is no specific exercise date, only an exercise period -- 5 years from vesting. Do we still have income at vesting? Or is this ok if otherwise satisfies section 409A requirements?"

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