Leaderboard

this is like deja vu from one day ago see the post 402g failure Roth correction after April 15

100% correct!

Yes. CP406 is the final notice but still eligible for DFVCP. The notice should say that it DFVCP is an option.

My point was exactly the opposite, ESOP Guy. The rules on compliance with a9 are completely different in the event of death before RBD. See 1.401(a)(9)-3.

Good morning, Jeanie. Thinking about you. The markets are at 2 week highs this morning. Hopefully, this will be reflected through the close and you will be able to see the result (again, depends on the account's investments) tomorrow morning. (Mutual funds do not report intra-day trading so if the markets continue to do well, the Vanguard funds may show it tomorrow morning.) As has been suggested by others on this site, don't rush this the decision to exit the market, if possible. There also will be a lag between the communication of your decision to leave these accounts and the execution of that decision. Hopefully that would only be one day, but, as noted above, mutual funds only trade on values at the close of business each day. For example, if you gave notice to sell today, you would receive the values as of the close of the market today and you would see it tomorrow. I am an attorney not a licensed broker so please note that I am sharing from my own experience and not as an adviser. Peace to you.

I can't imagine how overwhelmed you're feeling. Unless you need the funds from this account to meet immediate living expenses, take some time before making any decisions. We often don't make our best decisions in times of great stress. Some experts recommend not making any major decisions for 6 months or so after the death of your spouse. My mother sold many things that she has since regretted due to her grief over my father's death.

Good luck Jeanie. I lost a loved one this year. No words can truly capture the grief.

Again, so sorry for your loss. Not defending Vanguard because they can be slow, as you experienced, but they did know "know" your husband was deceased until they received the death certificate. I think your complaint is with your husband's employer's HR department. They should have helped you through this process in my opinion. Unfortunately, I do not think you will succeed with any claim against anyone with regard to this perceived loss. You may be able to keep the account active and hope that the stock market goes back up. It has plummeted during the time period you reference, again, in my opinion, due to President Trump's idea that tariffs would not cause market retaliation. It (the market) may very well right itself in a week or two. The best of luck to you. A trustworthy adviser might be a valuable addition to your team.

hi JEANIE--- I'm sorry for your loss also---this is par for the course with Vanguard and many others---we've been through this twice with V. with deaths this past year-----stay the course as you are and document, document, document everything. I agree with what's been said above, freezing does not mean insulating a DC account from losses---your first move if you want them to do so, is to sell everything (if that is the right investment decision for you). But first check with your estate attorney to see if that's what you want to do at this time.

Hi Jeanie. I am so sorry for your loss! I would suggest asking his employer if he indeed chose the funds, or if they did. With most investment houses like Vanguard/Nationwide/John Hancock, the participant fills out an enrollment form and indicates the funds. Honestly, as close as my husband and I are, we didn't discuss what funds we are choosing for our 401k accounts. Perhaps you can find his original enrollment form among his papers at home? Best of luck!

Maybe you will feel that this is "easy for me to say," but if you do not have an immediate need to convert all of the 401k investments to cash and instead intend to maintain them as long term investments for your retirement, those investments will (most likely) recover and continue to grow over the coming years.

I hate to say it Jeanie but it is going to be very difficult for you to recover the market losses. A 401(k) plan is an individual account plan and the value of the benefits depends on the value of the investments held in the account - in this case most likely Vanguard mutual funds. As the stock market goes up and down, the value of those investments will go up and down. In all probability, your late husband selected those investments, and the employer will not be responsible for his selection. Vanguard would also not be responsible for the value of the investments going down. Your late husband's employer or Vanguard or both (most likely the employer, but not likely Vanguard) would be responsible for an unreasonable delay in giving you control over the investments in the account. The question in lay person's terms is going to be whether anybody acted unreasonably in delaying giving you access. I think depending on the circumstances a delay of almost two months could be considered unreasonable. For example, when you first called and notified them of the death, and if you told them you are the surviving spouse, if they just sat on their hands and did nothing for almost two months, that could be considered unreasonable. The problem though is neither Vanguard nor the employer will likely just roll over. It will be extremely difficult to get them to budge. They have the advantage and they know it. In these types of cases, that involve investment disputes, it is highly unlikely the DOL will get involved. They will say it is a litigation matter and will not feel it is worth their time or resources. In the end I am guessing you would have to file a lawsuit, and there is a Supreme Court case in which Supreme Court Justice Roberts, in a concurring opinion, suggested you may have to file a claim with the plan and exhaust your administrative remedies before you can even file a lawsuit. If you want to try and recover it will be a lot of work for you. It will be very difficult, and if you want to hire someone to help, it would probably cost more than the $8,000 in losses. It is unfortunate that 401(k) plan litigation is this way - and in fact a lot of litigation is this way - but the old adage of don't throw good money after bad money may apply here.

I agree with David "freezing" did not mean the amount of money in the account will not change. I would not recommend going to the DOL first if you still think you have an issue. If you think Vanguard was too slow or non-responsive I would talk to the HR department at your spouse's former employer. They are the ones that work with Vanguard and they are the ones who hired Vanguard. Vanguard has an incentive to keep them happy. My condolences on your loss.

Consider the proper understanding of "freezing" an account. It's possible the account was "frozen", in the sense that no one else (ie, other than the person whose name is on the account) has access. The term "freeze" will (probably) not include an action that transfers the invested amounts into another type of investment. In other words, the amount remains invested, which means it can go up or down.

Contact the Department of Labor. They should be able to help you. Also, send the plan administrator a written benefit claim and include an original death certificate.