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Let the record reflect that I have liked a post from Larry Starr!

Fair??? When I've dealt with this issue from the podium I have made it clear that a plan MAY, but is not required to honor a refund request of this sort. What does the plan say? It is unfair to a plan sponsor that pays meticulous attention to 401(a)(30) to be forced into the administrative hassle associated with processing a refund, and to accurately determine the impact on testing.

is the HCE who is deferring Key? If not then there is no problem. Otherwise there are a few options I can think of: 1. Forfeit the excess contribution. The participant was not entitled to it under the plan's formula so it can not stay in their account. Could possibly be returned to the sponsor as a mistake of fact, depending on the circumstances. 2. True up the match on an annual basis (if this will help). 3. Make an additional discretionary ACP safe harbor match, if allowed by the plan document. 4. Make the necessary top heavy minimum contribution to the non-Keys.

Definitely a service business in my view: Alternatively, a business is a service organization if capital is not a material income-producing factor. [BL 130] Whether or not capital is a material income producing factor is decided on the basis of all facts and circumstances. The regulations give three examples to illustrate this point: Capital is a material income-producing factor for banks and similar institutions. Capital is a material income-producing factor if there is substantial investment in inventories, equipment, plant, and machinery. Capital is not a material income-producing factor if the income of the business comes primarily from fees or commissions for personal services performed by one or more individuals. [Prop. Treas. Reg. §1.414(m)-2(f)(1)] Given this definition, most all manufacturers, retailers, and wholesalers will not be service organizations, because capital is a material income-producing factor in their business. [BL 76; BL 77] Seems to me they clearly do not have capital as a material income producing factor; income come primarily from fees for the videos (personal services of teaching). FWIW.

When someone "tells you" something that is questionable, you should be asking that person for the proof that it is true. This is certainly NOT true, since assets of a plan are required to be held in trust or by an insurance company on behalf of the plan. Let's also note that a DB plan IS a 401(a) plan! Here is 401(a). Note the word "pension" in the first sentence. (a)Requirements for qualification. A trust created or organized in the United States and forming part of a stock bonus, pension, or profit-sharing plan of an employer for the exclusive benefit of his employees or their beneficiaries shall constitute a qualified trust under this section— And, how about this section 401(a)(5)(d): (D)Integrated defined benefit plan.— So, whoever made that statement is blowing smoke out of their rear!

Lou S. and Fiduciary Guidance Counsel have won the prize on this one. There are old insurance plans without loans which do not have trustees. ANY asset (loans) outside the insurance contract requires a trustee. Would not surprise me if Mutual of America had issued some of these. PNJ

While I don't suggest it's likely, among the remaining possibilities is one Lou S. suggested in the first response: a plan with no asset beyond insurance contracts. ERISA section 403(b)(1)-(2) https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2017-title29/html/USCODE-2017-title29-chap18-subchapI-subtitleB-part4-sec1103.htm

As implied above, if you are referring to qualified plans, a 401(k) plan IS a 401(a) plan and a DB plan IS a 401(a) plan.

Well are you talking about a DB plan qualified under 401(a) with the assets held in Trust or a non-qualified deferred comp plan with a DB structure for paying benefits? Or is it a fully insured plan using insurance contracts?