austin3515

When the owner makes more than the employee but is under the wage base, it makes a "big" difference. I have the exact same gut reaction...

I'm not sure what you mean. It is probably true that the allocation was so awful that they wouldn;t do it wihtout the 11g. Is that what you mean? 20 / 50, whatever. Are we available to treat it as a design-based safe harbor via an -11(g). That's the real crux of it.

Can we do an -11(g) amendment to change profit sharing allocation method from each in own group, to an integrated allocation with the allocation at 20% of the taxable wage base?

From 1.401(a)(4)-12 Testing age. With respect to an employee, testing age means the age determined for the employee under the following rules: (1) If the plan provides the same uniform normal retirement age for all employees, the employee's testing age is the employee's normal retirement age under the plan. (2) If a plan provides different uniform normal retirement ages for different employees or different groups of employees, the employee's testing age is the employee's latest normal retirement age under any uniform normal retirement age under the plan, regardless of whether that particular uniform normal retirement age actually applies to the employee under the plan.

Revisiting this question. What do I do if Plan A and Plan B are in a controlled group and one has an NRA of 62 and the other NRA is 65? I was hoping testing at SSRA would be a perfect solution, but obviously no luck there...

I think you have it backwards - service firms are not eligible for that kicker. So accounting firsm, law firms, medical practices, and us, would not be eligible. That's my understanding so far anyway. Please Lord let me wrong :)

Funny you should say that because that's who asked me! Anyway, the auditor who asked me, their firm does hundreds of audits and they had never heard of it before. But we all look at the plain English rule, and there it is. Curious if there any other thoughts out there...

a) Do you agree that the short plan year reg requires 103b financials for the "first of the 2 years" (the short plan year reg is referenced in the instructions) b) Do you agree that 103b is a "full-blown" financial statement complete wit disclosures like whether or nott he plan has a determination letter, a description of the Plan, etc. These things simply are not part of the 5500. I too thought initially that what you are saying had to be the case. It just HAD to be. But if you read the rules, it just does not say that.

OK, I can't argue with a good suggestion! The only exception in the 5500 instructions is the IQPA Report - NOT the fianncial statemetns, just the related opinion letter. And it reference the same DOL Reg I included above. Empahsis added below accordingly. Line 3d(2). Check this box if the plan has elected to defer attaching the IQPA’s opinion for the first of two (2) consecutive plan years, one of which is a short plan year of seven (7) months or fewer. The Form 5500 for the first of the two (2) years must be complete and accurate, with all required attachments, except for the IQPA’s report, including an attachment explaining why one of the two (2) plan years is of seven (7) or fewer months duration and stating that the annual report for the immediately following plan year will include a report of an IQPA with respect to the financial statements and accompanying schedules for both of the two (2) plan years. The Form 5500 for the second year must include: (a) financial schedules and statements for both plan years; (b) a report of an IQPA with respect to the financial schedules and statements for each of the two (2) plan years (regardless of the number of participants covered at the beginning of each plan year); and (c) a statement identifying any material differences between the unaudited financial information submitted with the first Form 5500 and the audited financial information submitted with the second Form 5500. See 29 CFR 2520.104-50.

The regs say you must nclude 103b financial statements. A quick review of 103b suggests that that is not the case. Look at the required disclosures under 103b. I saw a lot of familiar items there - items that are included in auditors footnotes to the financials (but are not anywhere on the Schedule H). Example: Information concerning whether or not a tax ruling or determination letter has been obtained;

DOL Regs 2520.104-50 regarding short plan years/deferral of audit report. (b) Deferral of accountant's report. A plan administrator is not required to include the report of an independent qualified public accountant in the annual report for the first of two consecutive plan years, one of which is a short plan year, provided that the following conditions are satisfied: (1) The annual report for the first of the two consecutive plan years shall include: (i) Financial statements and accompanying schedules prepared in conformity with the requirements of section 103(b) of the Act and regulations promulgated thereunder; See 103(b) from US Code (definition of financial statements) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/29/1023 Taken from this link: (2) With respect to an employee pension benefit plan: a statement of assets and liabilities, and a statement of changes in net assets available for plan benefits which shall include details of revenues and expenses and other changes aggregated by general source and application. In the notes to financial statements, disclosures concerning the following items shall be considered by the accountant: a description of the plan including any significant changes in the plan made during the period and the impact of such changes on benefits; the funding policy (including policy with respect to prior service cost), and any changes in such policies during the year; a description of any significant changes in plan benefits made during the period; a description of material lease commitments, other commitments, and contingent liabilities; a description of agreements and transactions with persons known to be parties in interest; a general description of priorities upon termination of the plan; information concerning whether or not a tax ruling or determination letter has been obtained; and any other matters necessary to fully and fairly present the financial statements of such pension plan. So it pretty much sounds like in the first of the 2 years you need to include full financial statements? I have never done this, and my 5500 software has never provided a validation error and my filings done based on this rule have never been rejected? Anyone have any thoughts??

I don;t understand how a non-profit could be subject to prevailing wage laws,, but it has something to do with their clients working on federal projects under some "put people to work" program. Anyone see any reason why this cannot be done in a 403b plan?

Probably not the document person's fault if I had to guess. I'd be looking up top for where to lay the blame. If it were my firm for example I would be horrified with myself. If you're running a TPA shop these are the sorts of things that you should be talking about and keeping up on.

Have that person add you as a user on the site. It is super-easy, no additional charge, and you will receive their technical update emails which are awesome. Among other valuable information you would have received the article in your original post when it was issued (and of course the amendment). It should be as easy as submitting an "incident" and requesting access.

I still think if this will get them going, I'd advise my clients not to poke the bear :)

Actually, one does not have to ask. One might instead say what I said which is that it needed to be signed in 2017. Same message, no hurt feelings

To avoid any misinformation on the public record, we received ours from FIS back April 2017. Of course if you wanted to use it for your clients in 2017 it needed to be signed in 2017. I ssume they did all of their documents at the same time, but we use the Corbel version.

With the early participation for the Doctors only I would be afraid that if an IRS auditor saw that plan design, they would insist on seeing that TRA 86 restatement or something like that to punish you for being so obnoxious. Anyone else have a similar reservation? You are somewhat beholden to them under audit and they have every right to ask a lot of questions that can be time consuming. Perhaps that design is the basis to expand their audit to be much more extensive than it might otherwise have been...

Plan years begining after 12/31/18. Actually perhaps this explains the delay. Recordkeepers rightly said they need more time to implement the change. This certainly gives everyone time to adjust their systems. Perhaps the voice of reason was there whispering in the Uncle Sam's ear...

Tom Poje is pretty Guru though and he says no... Although I am better known as an International MAn of Mystery (as opposed to a pension guru) I too eventually learned that you either are an HCE today or you are not. But when "the Tom Poje" says he wouldn't do it, it certainly gets my attention!

http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20180205/BILLS- 115HR1892SAmdt2.pdf 41113 and 41114. Back in baby!

How about this: Younger Owner makes $50,000 and gets a 3% SHNEC for $1,500. Older NHCE makes a $100,000 and gets $$3,000 SHNEC. Sounds like I can do a PS contribution of $1,500 for the younger owner t get him or her a total of $3,000. This might be the coolest thing I have learned on these boards in a year... Probably not going to help very often, but really cool...

Correct me if I am wrong, but did MargeM not make the crucial point here? You CAN give the lower paid HCE $5,000 and the higher paid NHCE $5,000 and still pass testing on the basis of allocations? Safe harbor/not safe harbor might be the subject of my thesis in my pension Ph.D studies, but I just want to know what I can do for a client.

My secret trick is: If you have a $100,000 cash and a $5,000 loan, roll your $100K to your new employers plan, then take a $5,000 loan and make a rollover to an IRA (the advantage here is the 5498 from the custodian to prove to the IRS you did it). This way you pay no taxes and you still have your $5,000 loan. obviousluy you have to be able to rollover right away and the plan must allow for loans and you must have enough money to do all of this. But a lot of times it lines up.