Rai401k

We don't deal with many cash balance plans most of our plans are defined benefit plans. We use the Corbel Pre-Approved Volume Submitter plans and know that our DB plans must be restated by 4/30/2012. However we were under the impression that the Cash Balance plans fell under the same window and that the CB plans could rely on the pre-approved VS documents as well. I guess we were under a rock this whole time. We now know that Cash Balance plans are considered to be Individually Designed Plans and should be on the 5 year cycle - not the 6 year cycle like the DB and DC plans. We have 3 Cash Balance Plans 1st plan's EIN# ends in "0" - plan effective date 1/1/2006 2nd plan's EIN# ends in "0" - plan effective date 1/1/2007 3rd plan's EIN# ends in "5" - plan effective date 1/1/2009 Based on what i am reading these all fall under Cycle E of the 5 year cycle, this means all 3 of these plans should have been submitted for a determination letter on 1/31/2011 is this correct? Does anyone know how we go about correcting this now? Are these plans doomed at this point or can we go through the correction program? If so can anyone point me to a link? I've searched the IRS website and they have a submission kit for a missed EGTRRA restatement but it pertains to the 4/30/2010 DC plans restatement. Also how does the effective date of the plan play in to when the document must be submitted on the 5 year cycle - i know you have to look at the last digit of the EIN but i was reading that you have to look at when the tax returns are due as well...maybe i am making this up? For example the 3rd plan above was effective 1/1/2009 i thought this would fall in to the next 5 year cycle but after researching a bit further the returns for the 2009 plan were due in 2010 but this still falls before the 1/31/2011 due date for the Cycle E so it would be due the same time as the othe two. Am I correct?

1. Does anyone know if the renewal process for ERPAs with a social ending in 4,5 or 6 is still delayed? Is the 8554-EP form still not available? 2. This may be a stupid question but what is the CPE cycle ---is it from your designation date to your anniversary or is based on calendar year? For example if you became an ERPA in June of 2010 are you required to get 16 credits from 6/10-6/11 or is the credits based on calendar year 16 credits in 2010, 16 in 2011 etc? I'm guessing the 72 credits must be completed from 6/2010-6/2013?

We have a participant under a union plan that is on long term disability and receiving Social Security benefits. Under the terms of the document the definition of disability is determined under the SS Act therefore he is considered Disabled. The document provides that upon disability the participant shall become 100% vested and be entitled to a distribution of the participants benefits. The client does not want the participant to be able to take a distribution because under the terms of the union agreement the participant is not terminated he is considered inactive and can return to work at anytime and they must take him back based on the terms of the union agreement. The client feels that if the participant receives a distribution of his account balance it would be an in-service distribution. Under the terms of the document an in-service distribution can only be taken if the participant has attained age 59 1/2. Does the plan document supersede here since the participant is considered disabled can we let him take a distribution, or does the client have a good argument and can they deny this participant his benefit?

We are a TPA taking over a 403(b) plan and have some questions. 1. The current 403(b) is not a group contract but instead based on individual are participants allowed to transfer their money to us as even though the plan is not terminating. There is not a distributable event but I have heard that under 403(b) regulations participants can still transfer to a new provider...is this true? 2. If the client decides they want to terminate the 403(b) and start a 401(k) plan with us, is there any wait to do that? (i.e. 12 month rule?). What if they terminate their current 403(b) and start a new 403(b) with us is there a 12month wait for that? 3. What are the document requirements, our understanding is if the plan has employer contributions they are required to have a written document but if they only have deferrals no document is required? 4. Finally 5500 requirements, is it true that all 403(b) plans are now required to file the entire form - (asset information etc). if for any reason the participants are unable to move their money from the current custodian (+ we are unable to have terminated participant move their money over) will we need to have the old custodian provide us with asset statements every year to record keep and file the 5500 form?

Yes we're not to sure about these type of plans we spoke with a number of Enrolled Actuaries, most of whom had not heard of this type of plan; the very few who had heard of them would not advocate for or certify them. Also in reply to mike preston, i don't believe Mercer copyrighted the concept just the name "retirement share". I've seen other company's sell the same concept but use a different name for the plan.

You're right, as we were researching it further we came across Mercer's website and that's exactly what they are "Retirement Share Plans" There is so little information on these types of plans other than from Mercer. Thanks!

Does anyone know what a "Variable Benefit Plan" is? One of our clients is interested in this type of plan but we do not know what it is Based on the description it sounds like a Defined Benefit Plan, but the investment risk is on the participant. Can we use pre-approved DB plan documents for this type of plan or would a IDP have to be done? Any information would be helpful. Thank you

A lot of our client were having the "process stopped" and it was signing/username pin errors. We were told by Relius that the client should log in to the DOL website and confirm their credential information ---Sometimes this worked ---BUT most of the time the clients didn't think this would make a difference because they had already printed out the screen with their credentials when they signed up. We finally called the DOL and they said they've received a lot of calls for this error. One of the biggest reasons they believe this is happening is when the clients signed up for their credentials and got to the page where it displayed the User ID and Pin, they thought they were finished and closed out of the website before finishing the registration. The DOL agent said there is one more step after that page that tells them to create a password for the DOL website. After we spoke to the agent we had tons of clients say that they didn't remember doing that step. Once they went to the DOL website and click forgot password - which took them through the process of creating a new one for the DOL website (which completes the registration), they were able to file with no problems. Hope this helps!

we are having the same problem....we use relius gov't forms. We want to file a 5500 SF instead of an EZ so our client can file electronically but gov't forms is forcing us to fill out the 'other income' section even though the instructions say not to? We haven't received a call back from Relius since they are so backed up!! Has anyone figured out how to submit these filings even though they have errors according to gov't forms?

We received a handfull right after I posted the topic, phew! Thanks for the reply!

What is the timeframe to receive a acknowledgement letter for a submission? We received a good portion of acknowledgement letters for EGTRRA document that we submitted (up until about April 23, 2010). Most of the acknowlegement letters we received were date about 3 to 4 weeks after we submitted. Anything that was mailed after 4/23/2010 we haven't received acknowledgement letters for (all postmarked before 4/30 of course). Of course my worst fear is that we didn't get them in on time. I was wondering if anyone is still receiving acknowlegement letters or if all of them were sent out already? Did anyone submit the last week of April? Or were we the only ones backing up a truck load submission to the IRS at the last minute!!

Yes I believe you have the address correct, this is what it states on the form 8717..... Where To File Include Form 8717 and user fee with your request or application. IF you have this type of request or application . . . Determination letter THEN use this address if you send it by: US mail or Express Mail Internal Revenue Service P.O. Box 12192 Covington, KY 41012-0192 Private delivery service Internal Revenue Service 201 West Rivercenter Blvd. Attn. Extracting Stop 312 Covington, KY 41011 Volume submitter plan or Master or Prototype plan US mail or Express Mail Internal Revenue Service P.O. Box 2508 Attn: Pre-Approved Plans Coordinator Room 5106 Cincinnati, OH 45201 Private delivery service Internal Revenue Service 550 Main Street Attn: Pre-Approved Plans Coordinator Room 5106 Cincinnati, OH 45202

We made it! All done! But of course with a week left we are still waiting for people to send us back the documents! AND we still are in the process of submitting our pre-approved documents to the IRS for determination letter, I know that some people think this is a waste of time but that's the way we do it here! Only 80 more documents to submit in 5 days!! I'm sure this is exactly what the IRS didn't want us to do, truck loads of documents coming in the last week of April ...sorry

When submitting a pre-approved plan document to the IRS using a form 5307 do we have to include the form 8905.? We have not been doing this because we were under the impression that 8905 only had to be submitted if the prior plan document was an IDP. All of our GUST docs were pre-approved Accudraft VS. We are now using the Corbel Pre-approved VS plan documents for EGTRRA ( i guess for that reason alone we should be submitting them !!). For some reason we were under the impression that since we have never used IDPs that it was a waste of time for us to have the 8905s signed back in 2006, and you can only use the 8905 if you had a IDP and then were adopting a pre-approved plan. To switch from a 5 year to 6 year cycle. That is why we haven't been sending them in with our 5307 submissions. We have submitted a hand full of docs so far, how much of a problem would this cause. Will they just come back and ask for a copy of it? We will be sure to send them in with our submissions going forward

I know i'm confusing myself here but I want to make sure i am submitting the right information for determination letters. We use corbel pre-approved Volume Submitters 1. with our older documents (which were accudraft) that have GUST determination letters I am pretty sure we have it down .... the amends we are including with the EGTRRA doc -----(i)EGTTRA good-faith amend, (ii) 401(a)(9) amend (basically any amends that were tacked on to the GUST doc when we submitted for a GUST DL) PLUS (iii) automatic rollover amend (iv) Final 401(k) (v)Final 415 (vi)PPA/HEART) and and discretionary amends in between. 2. Am I correct in assuming that if a plan is new---lets say effective 1/1/2009 or even 1/1/2010, the only amendments i need to include are the final 415 amend and the PPA/HEART amendment when I am submitting for a DL? (maybe this is a corbel questions???)

thanks for the feedback guys.... I felt like l was the only one still working on them...alot of people i've spoken to had them done in mid 2009. So I felt like I was so behind. we are a fairly small TPA ....it's my responsibilty to get all the restatemetns done. I had about 225 to do .... doesn't seem like alot compared to 8,000 but it has taken me since May of last year to get 125 ...... 100 more to go. Hopefully I can get them done by April

So we're almost there, but I still have a lot of restatement left ...about 100 more. Just curious to see where everyone else is at? Am I the only one still working on these crazy restatements!! Can't wait till this is over!!!

I submitted a plan and typed in "None" next to the caf number on the 2848, but i was recently told that I would not receive one because I am submitting for a determination letter and not a tax filing. I went to the IRS website and did some research, it does state that CAF numbers will not be recorded on for determination letters. Oh well all that waiting for nothing ....I guess I will be submitting my requests without a CAF #. Just thought it would be something I would need Line 4. Specific Uses Not Recorded on CAF Generally, the IRS records powers of attorney on the CAF system. However, a power of attorney will not be recorded on the CAF if it does not relate to a specific tax period (except for civil penalties) or if it is for a specific issue. Examples of specific issues include but are not limited to the following: Requests for a private letter ruling or technical advice, Applications for an EIN, Claims filed on Form 843, Claim for Refund and Request for Abatement, Corporate dissolutions, Requests to change accounting methods or periods, Applications for recognition of exemption under sections 501©(3), 501(a), or 521 (Forms 1023, 1024, or 1028), Request for a determination of the qualified status of an employee benefit plan (Forms 5300, 5307, or 5310), and Voluntary submissions under the Employee Plans Compliance Resolution System (EPCRS).

k2retire, I believe you are using the Corbel PPD prototype documents, in that case you are correct. We use the Volume Submitter IDP document in which the 2002 dates are hard coded in according to Corbel. We have had this discussion with them because i noticed it in a document I received for a conversion from another TPA. I notice that they used 2002 as the effective date for the EGTRRA restatement. When I called Corbel they let me know that this was unique to thier PPD protype documetns only.

We use the pre-approved corbel documents, and we are coming close to the end of the year, unfortunetly it’s going to be close to impossible for us to get all of our restatements done and signed by 12/31/2009. If we start using an effective date of 1/1/2010 we know that we have only until 4/30/2010 to have those documents signed unlike having till the end of the year for our 1/1/2009 documents, but what other disadvantages would there be for not having all our restatements done by the end of this year? Is it true that we still have to have the PPA amendment signed by 12/31/2009, we are currently sending them out with our restatements?

I am in this process of submitting our EGTRRA restatements for a favorable determination letter, as a newly designated ERPA i can now sign the 2848. What I want to do is add a CAF# to the 2848. What I intend to do is send in a EGTRRA submission for one of my clients and enter "none" on the 2848 next to the CAF#, and I will then receive a number in the mail. My question is: Is there any easier way to apply for a CAF number? If not can I take the 2848 that I sending out with my first EGTRRA submission, fax it in to the CAF fax number that I found on the IRS website and then send it again with the EGTRRA submission. Maybe this would speed up the process.....(sorry for the stupid question but everytime I call the IRS I can't get an answer). I want to have the CAF # as soon as possible so I can enter them on all of our 2848 that we send in with our EGTRRA submissions.

Did you come up with that all by yourself? Good one.

phew! hate to say this but I feel a little better that we are not the only ones that are not done yet!!

We are still working on our EGTRRA restatements. We started them earlier this yr and plan to have them all done and signed by the end of 2009. I was just curious to find out if we were the only one's still working on them, I feel like a lot people that I've spoken to had them done last year ....or are almost done.

Ok I have another question regarding the ERPA designation. This might be a stupid one but here it goes... What number do we use on form 2848 or 8821 when filing? is it the one on the card that we received (2009-XXXXXX-XX) or do we just use (XXXXXX-XX) no year.