ESOP Guy

Yup seen this also. And this meets the rules that Peter quotes in my mind. If the return was filed after the original due date and there is an extension the contribution was made by the extended due date. The extended due date of the return does't change just because the return was filed before the last day of the extension.

A big part of the difficulty is the note has to be secured. What asset is the company willing to have a lien put on it to secure it? Would a lien on an asset violate other loan covenants the company has? They can get a bank to agree to make the note good but if the company could do that they are most likely in good enough cash position to just pay the person cash. See my prior comment for ideas I would track down before spending too much time on this idea.

I haven't seen this done in decades. It is pretty difficult to do all legally correct is part of the problem. If the company is having cash flow problems regarding paying benefits and the repurchase obligation they need to find a firm that is good at repurchase obligation studies and work on a plan. ESOPs have more flexibility to change their distribution rules and policy than most types of plans in regards to protected benefits. This is an area where a good TPA and ERISA attorney that knows ESOPs can really help with the planning. It tends to be money worth spending.

Congrats on retirement. I would assume most people on a forum like this know about this IRS table with all the limits going back 1989. chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/cola-table.pdf

We do help our clients look for lost people who need an RMD as no one likes an uncashed check hanging on the books. We don't do it until very close to the RMD date or if the check really does go uncashed.

Add another voice that is objecting to the annual part of this idea. We look for or advise our clients to look for people when it is relevant. Although places like Inspira people send a lot of forced out to IRAs to them does an annual search. Not sure if it is part of the base fee they charge those IRAs or an add on What I do know is that a few hundred in an Inspira IRA needs to have an incredible rate of return to not have the balance go down annually.

The moral of this story is: Folks make sure your beneficiary elections are complete and up to date as you aren't doing your heirs any favors if you don't. I can't tell you how many times I have said that sentence to someone of the job.

Also understand if the estate is small enough in many states the beneficiaries of the estate can use a "small estate affidavit" I am NOT an expert and it isn't really the TPA's job to educate people on them. But we see them on a regular basis and it seems to allow a fair amount of skipping of the probate process. You now know close to 100% of what I know and I am not sure if I helped or not.

Your math and logic is all wrong. Read the IRS examples: https://links.us1.defend.egress.com/Warning?crId=6984f4a2c933bcd338c721dd&Domain=oneblueridge.com&Threat=eNpzrShJLcpLzAEADmkDRA%3D%3D&Lang=en&Base64Url=eNrLKCkpKLbS1y9JTcwt1svNTC7KL85PK9FLzs_Vz01NLdE3MrE0s7AwMbe0tDA3M7IvsA21zEsvrfIrzM4M8CrLyvIMzQYALWcXFw%3D%3D&@OriginalLink=teams.microsoft.com

Ok lets be dumb and set aside the oddities but they have been covered enough I won't beat the dead horse too much. I would check if this is an Affiliated Service Group. I have to admit I know enough about these to know to look as you see them infrequently. I mean what are they doing for this company as "owners" if not managing it? It might not be a service organization for example. My guess even if they think they can thread the needle on the Affiliated Service Group rules and so forth in an audit the way they are being paid becomes the issue. This seems to be set up to exclude the rank and file from benefits they want for themselves. I just try to avoid the stink of pigs in this job and this has the stink of pigs trying to get benefits for themselves they aren't willing to give the rank and file.

Does the RR plan document allow for the RR in? Are the NR union employees excluded by document and the benefit subject to good faith bargaining? If you are excluding the one group by document and they had good faith bargaining to that effect that is a statutory exclusion. They aren't in the coverage test. I am pretty sure you test the included union people separately from the non-union for 410b testing by regulation. But check me on that or someone tell me I am wrong. It has been a number of years since I had a mixed union and non-union plan. The first step is to make sure the groups are included and excluded per the document and contract and move forward from there.

Yeah, the times I have seen this error we didn't put this much thought into it. We got the money moved to the correct plan. If we thought it was material there was some earnings transferred. I have to admit I don't recall any of these plans ever getting an IRS or DOL audit also. But at times the KISS Principle works.

You may have thought of this already but there are a lot of important side issues. I have had this happen before. if the first check was paid in 2025 and you reissue can you stop the 2025 1099-R? If not, will there be a 1099-R for the original check and whoever gets the new check? it seems like there shouldn't be two 1099-Rs. I know a lot of banks don't allow even the correct person endorse and deposit a check in a dead person's name so while maybe legal my guess that check can't get deposited. However, the person had the check so it is taxable income to the deceased. If no 1099-R ends up in their name that isn't going to be an issue most likely. After that it is an asset of the estate in my mind. My guess the plan needs some advice of an attorney like mentioned.

We will ask the client to ask the attorney about that provision. Thanks for your help!

It is an ESOP so it is an ERISA governed plan.