Guest yvonne001 Posted November 5, 2002 Posted November 5, 2002 I have a plan that would like to give a profit sharing contribution to the employees but exclude the owners of the company. This is a standardized plan. I do not see any reference to this situation in the document. If the plan was giving a QNEC the HCE's would be excluded, but this is not a QNEC, just a normal profit sharing contribution. Any help would be appreciated.
Brian Gallagher Posted November 5, 2002 Posted November 5, 2002 I think you would have to move to a non-standardized prototype to exclude anyone from a particular form of benefit. you probably wouldn't have any coverage issues if all the owners were condidered HCE's. Remember: two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.
Guest yvonne001 Posted November 5, 2002 Posted November 5, 2002 The owners don't want to be excluded from the plan. They just don't want to get a portion of the contribution this year. Does that make any difference?
Brian Gallagher Posted November 5, 2002 Posted November 5, 2002 i'm not sure how flexible your prototype is. our new non-standard from Corbel has provisions to exclude classes of people by money type: 401k, match, employer non-elective. if your document is not that flexible (as our pre-GUST one was) you'll either need to get another prototype or consider an idp. remember, whatever you do, you should apply for an determination letter from the irs. Remember: two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.
david rigby Posted November 5, 2002 Posted November 5, 2002 Pardon my ignorance, but why do you need a determination letter to amend a plan in order to discriminate against HCEs? I'm a retirement actuary. Nothing about my comments is intended or should be construed as investment, tax, legal or accounting advice. Occasionally, but not all the time, it might be reasonable to interpret my comments as actuarial or consulting advice.
Guest merlin Posted November 6, 2002 Posted November 6, 2002 It sound to me like you need to amend the plan's ps allocation to some kind of class or tiered basis. That way the owners can decide each year what to give themselves and the other employees. But if you have a standardized plan you ( i.e., they) are probably stuck for this year (I'm assuming you're dealing with a calendar year plan).Any change in the allocation basis once a prticipant has met the requirements for an allocation is viewed by the Service as a violation of the anticutback rules,and the anticutback rules apply to HCEs and NHCEs alike. I would not suggest a waiver to them either.That kind of discretion could lead to the Service considering the plan to be a 401k.
Brian Gallagher Posted November 6, 2002 Posted November 6, 2002 my firm always recommends that a plan get a determination letter with their non-standardized prototype a.a. Remember: two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.
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