chris Posted January 7, 2003 Posted January 7, 2003 I've had someone tell me that the deferral limit of 12K currently is not part of the 40K maximum annual addition. Looking at 415©(2) I do not see anything that takes deferrals out of the definition of "employee contributions". I had run into this issue once before shortly after EGTRRA was passed, but wanted to verify that the answer was still the same, i.e., 40K is the max (except for 1K catch-up contributions) and that 401(k) deferrals counted in that 40K figure. Thanks for the feedback.
Mike Preston Posted January 7, 2003 Posted January 7, 2003 401k deferrals are indeed included in the $40,000 415 limit. Catch-up deferrals are not included in the 415 limit. Hence, in 2003 and individual born on or before 12/31/1953 can get $42,000 if they are in a 401k plan that allows for catch-up contributions and if they have at least $40,000 in 415© income.
E as in ERISA Posted January 7, 2003 Posted January 7, 2003 Maybe the person is confused with the 404 deduction rules -- elective deferrals aren't counted in the limit.
austin3515 Posted January 7, 2003 Posted January 7, 2003 I think Katherine is right because I too made this very mistake! Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA
dmwe Posted January 16, 2003 Posted January 16, 2003 And is it correct that if you remove deferrals for a 415 failure you do not go back and rerun the ADP test?
austin3515 Posted January 16, 2003 Posted January 16, 2003 IT depends if they're an NHCE or an HCE. IF they're an HCE, the results can only get better, so why retest. If they're an NHCE, then the results will get worse, so you may have to rerun depending on the situation. Of course the Plan would have to be pretty generous to get a 415 failure for an NHCE in the post-EGTRRA rules. Austin Powers, CPA, QPA, ERPA
Blinky the 3-eyed Fish Posted January 16, 2003 Posted January 16, 2003 Deferrals returned due to a 415 limit violation are NOT included in the ADP test. "What's in the big salad?" "Big lettuce, big carrots, tomatoes like volleyballs."
Guest jjenkins Posted January 20, 2003 Posted January 20, 2003 Here's my situation: 401(k) deferrals = $13,000 match = $6,000 profit sharing = $24,000 plan year = 1/1/02 - 12/31/02 The employee is catch up eligible and an HCE. $1,000 is characterized as catch up (not an annual addition) $1,000 is returned as 402(g) excess deferral before 4/15/03 (not an annual addition) My understanding of the regs is without a 415 excess, since this employee is an HCE $12,000 would be tested on ADP. However, this employee is exceeding the 415 limit by $1,000. According to information I found in Sal's books p.5.51 (2001 edition), elective deferrals distributed due to 415 excess are not included for 402(g) and for purposes of the ADP test. Most importantly, I need to know how to treat the 401(k) deferrals on the ADP test. $12,000 b/c this is what the HCE deferred (after catch ups) or $11,000 b/c we are going to refund $1,000 in deferrals due to 415 failure. Also, not clear on how to deal with disregarding for 402(g) limits. The 402(g) excess occurred before we were able to run the 415 test...do we now go back and re-do the 402(g) limit, excluding the $1,000 415 excess (this seems like it creates an evil loop to me)? If so, now I don't have a 402(g) excess and now I have no idea what is tested on ADP. Also, the W-2 is still going to report $13,000 in deferrals, won't the IRS be expecting a 402(g) excess deferral refund? Help!
Alf Posted January 21, 2003 Posted January 21, 2003 I think there is a problem with 402(g) regardless. Without the 402(g) correction, you have a $2,000 excess for 415. The 402(g) return makes your 415 excess just $1,000. Before 415 testing, you should have $11,000 subject to ADP, not $12,000 because the catch up should not be included in ADP, I don't think. After 415, there are only $10,000 deferrals for the ADP test. Also, shouldn't the W-2 show $11,000 at the end of the day ($10,000 deferrals and $1,000 catch up)?
Guest jjenkins Posted January 21, 2003 Posted January 21, 2003 I'm confused. Why would the W-2 report $11,000 in deferrals rather than $13,000?
Alf Posted January 21, 2003 Posted January 21, 2003 If 13 was deferred initally, 1 returned under 402(g) and 1 returned under 415, shouldn't 11 be on the w-2 (13-1-1=11).
Guest jjenkins Posted January 21, 2003 Posted January 21, 2003 I didn't think the W-2 would reflect the 402(g) refund or the 415 excess refund. Isn't the W-2 supposed to reflect the actual amount deferred into the plan on a pre-tax basis, then 1099s would be created as a result of the refunds?
E as in ERISA Posted January 21, 2003 Posted January 21, 2003 Correct. The W-2 correctly reports that $13,000 was actually withheld from pay. The excess deferrals and excess annual additions are reported on 1099s because they are distributions from the plan.
Guest jjenkins Posted January 21, 2003 Posted January 21, 2003 Katherine...do you have any thoughts on the post I started with a few up?
Guest jjenkins Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 I'm desperate to see what ideas any of you have on what should end up on the ADP test for the deferral amount for the person in my previous example. Is the 415 excess of $1,000 excluded from the numerator for the HCE? So, only $11,000 on the ADP test...or since this employee is an HCE and they had a 402(g) excess which normally is included in the numerator for HCEs, $12,000?
Fredman Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 i think you need to play a game of "document sez." if the document sez that you refund deferrals first, then i put my chips with no 402g excess and its not included on the adp test.
Guest jjenkins Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 Again, I'm confused. If a 402(g) refund is processed before April 15, the amount refunded is NOT an annual addition...so how could you refund the entire amount of the 415 refund...then not have a 402(g) issue? The 402(g) issue would have occurred before the 415 tests fails (at least, I'm assuming so in this example). And...I still have concerns that the W-2 is going to show the 402(g) excess and won't the IRS be expecting a 402(g) excess refund?
Tom Poje Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 I would use 12,000 on the ADP test. ee is an hce and has 1000 excess deferral and the regs say to use excess deferrals for an hce. 1099 would indicate 1000 in excess deferral. the w-2 can't get around it. I don't think the annual addition really comes into play. while there is no example I know of to indicate your situation, the ERISA Outline book does have an example of a plan that refunded both excess deferral and excess contributions. there was 600 in excess deferral. so what happens? The plan could treat 1000 as 'excess contributions'. since this refund was more than enough to cover the excess deferral, no additional refund was required. However, the 1099s would indicate 600 in excess deferral, and 400 in excess contributions. (plus gains of course) so, I would think logically apply this to the annual addition. the excess deferral refunded before 4/15 is not an annual addition. thank heavens. what code would you use on the 1099 if it wasn't? you would be stuck with a combo excess deferral and annual addition. the govt graciously avoided that problem for you by ignoring the excess deferral for that purpose. But I would hold that purpose only, I don't see where the govt also said ignore it on the ADP test. I am not sure if it will make a difference anyway. with the top down rule for a failed test you are going to have to refund $, and this ee is going to eat up the first 1000 anyway
Guest jjenkins Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 Tom, Thanks! I was leaning that way...but couldn't come up with any real rationale to support. Jacque Jenkins
Tom Poje Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 yeh, but my response is an opinion only, perhaps a good faith effort opinion to apply the rules as they appear to be.
Guest jjenkins Posted January 23, 2003 Posted January 23, 2003 I knew you were going to send that disclaimer...!!! Thanks!
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