How long can they put me off on 401k death benefits?

[Guest dulan]

First please let me say that I am keeping notes of all my calls and the mail I have sent has been priority with registered signature.

My brother was 49 and only needed a few months having in 25 years with Delta airlines as a mechanic.

He was not married and did not have any children. He was divorced three times.

The last marriage ended in the first part of 2003. As soon as he had the divorce he started asking me for my SS number to put me down as his beneficary. They were married I think 4 years.

I know that he turned into Delta his change of martial status and he also had to take them a copy of the divorce decree. I have copies of all that .

The divorce decree stated that neither one had any rights to the others retirement, savings and pretty much just what they came into the marriage with they each left with.

His ex wife made as much and sometimes more money than he did.

He would often go over my SS number just to be sure he had it down correctly. He would say that with Delta the spouse was automatically the beneficary. He made changes with his life insurance right after the divorce and I have already received it.

I am the administrator of his estate. After posting on here a couple of weeks ago I was told I needed the benefit plan summary.

I have requested that over the phone and I do keep names and dates of those calls when I called the Deltal office in AZ where their human resources office is I talked to two different people and they didn't know what I was talking about. They didn't know what the summary benefit plan was. The next day I got a call from the lady that had given me the numbers for the delta benefits and she seemed to know what it was but I have never received it.

But in then mean time I got the letter from the court making me the administrator of his estate. I had made another trip to Atlanata to apply for it.

When I mailed the letter of testamintary I wrote a note asking for the benefit plan summary.

I sent that to Delta and to Fidelity, these were sent priority and registered receipt.

I also expained I was his only survivor and claimed the 401k.

Delta had gone into bankruptcy and their 401k was matched with company stock and after the bankruptcy that was all taken away from the employees.

So my brothers 401k is money he put there and what he had taken out of his pay check all those years.

It has grown and is worth a lot. Mostly in high risk stocks though Fedility.

I sent that to Delta and to Fidelity. These were also sent priority with signed receipt.

They each say that the other one is responsible for letting the beneficary know . Delta says Fedility is a separate vendor and they don't have anything to do with it and don't have acess to his beneficiarys.

Fidelity is waiting on Delta's legal department to let them know what to do with is since Fidelity does not show any benificary.

As the administrator I need to know,but I also know I am his only survivor and and he would talk often about dieing . I would not want to hear this because it hurt to bad hearing him say things about he thought he would not live long.

I never thought it would happen like it did. He was 49 and just dropped dead.

He didn't have any other immediate relatives,but I have a grown daughter and he loved her.

One of my main questions is how long can they keep stalling and then the divorcee decree they both signed and it looks like he took it to work and turned it in

because his employee number is on this divorce. And he mentioned at the time he needed to take a copy to work.

I am putting his house on the market soon and I have had all his mail forward to me but until I got the letter from the court I was having to have his neighbor forward me his mail.'

A Fidility statement came last week and there is a large amount of money in his 401K.

I don't care who he left anything to but I know his exwife lived beyond there combined income means.

He died Aug 27 but his body was not found until three days later.

I have had to pay for his funeral and his mortage payment plus utilities out of my own pocket until his credit union money gets here.

I do have the life insurance and one mortuary was paid out of that but his body was flewn

up here and so I had to have a second mortuary to pick it up at the airport and drive it to the next state for burial.

Now I have had to have some repairs done to his house and I have paid for most of his monthly bills out of my money.

I had to rent a large U-Haul and pay of it and gas for that trip. Plus have paid to keep his utilities on.

He didn't own for anything except his house. But there was a lot of upkeep just because of the neighorhood, with the homeowners association.

I realize that the 401K has to be rolled over but I am so hurt over losing him that between being told so many different stories with the Delta Family Care Saving Plan that is the 401k that I fear I am going to just die my self.

If offered all the money in the world I would want my brohter back. If this stress gets any worse I am afraid I will not be able to take care of it.

And I don't want some outsider doing it.

Thanks for any help or advice

Sandy

Can anyone please just let me know if there is a statue of limitations on letting me know about the beneficiary is?

I just worry that something could have happened and the ex was not off the paper work because of some glitch in the system.

Thanks for any suggestions.

sandy

[Guest Pensions in Paradise]

Not sure if it was a typo, but what you should be asking for is a copy of the "Summary Plan Description". Send a letter to Delta Airlines via certified mail requesting a copy of the Summary Plan Description. Delta is the plan sponsor and is legally responsible for providing you the document. They are required to provide you a copy within 90 days of the date you become entitled to benefits.

If it has been more than 90 days since you requested the SPD, you can contact the Department of Labor and request their assistance.

If either Delta or Fidelity gives you any more runarounds, I would go ahead and contact the Department of Labor. You would be surprised how quickly some companies respond when they get a call or letter from the DOL.

Also, if there is a large amount involved, you may want to think about hiring an attorney. Until the account is liquidated it is subject to market swings. So if the market drops, so does the account balance.

Good luck.

[Guest dulan]

Thank You for that helpful infomration.

I am making lots of typo mistakes and I do try to read before posting.

When I sent the letters from probate saying I was the administrator of his estate that was when I also put a request in writing for the Summary Plan Description.

I did word it incorrectly in my previous post. But when I sent the letter I made sure it was worded like the way you stated it. Summary Plan Description

This was with registered priority mail.

But in addention to that how long can they go before letting me know that my brother had filled out a beneficiary's name or had the ex wife off his 401K . She spend everything she could be her hands on and at one time he needed surgery real bad and she would not take him to have it done so I had to fly down and stay for a week and care for him. My brother even paid for her a tummy tuck and took vacation to care for her when she had it.

Sorry for all the personal stuff but if she stands a chance of having any claims to his retirement that would be one of the worst things that could happen.

Like I mentioned before I have copies where he filled out forms that he was dvorced and he made me the beneficary of his life insurance but even if I had a copy of the Summary Plan Description how is that going to tell me how is the beneficary?

Delta knows how long he has been deceased and they gave me numbers to call for each of his benefits.

The letter I sent from probate that shows I am the administrator was only sent last week.

I had called them the day after I learned of his death wich was the end of August .

It was not until on this board a few weeks ago that I first heard of a Summary Plan Description.

After learning about that I called the next day and I did keep notes with names but I figured until I had the letters from probate that I should just wait and make the request in writing along with the letter from probate.

Fidelity has just places the blame on Delta and Delta says that they have nothing to do with the vendors.

If I received the Summary Plan Description will that help me to know if the ex wife got taken off as a beneficary?

With him getting making the changes that he was divored and that I was the beneficiary of his life insurance mean anything to the 401K benefit?

If the 90 days passes would that be from the time of death that delta knew about is even if it was not in writing from he?

His supervisor is the one that called me. He called and said I was listed as the next of kin and that my brother had not showed up for work for three days. He has left sick a few days before.

He said he was sending someone out to his house and if he never came to the door they were calling the sherriff.

I could not wait so I was going nuts and lucky for me my daughter was visiting me and she went on line and looked up the sherriff department and I called them.

So from the beginning they knew about his death and then the next day Delta flew us down and his supervisor met us at the airport with a list of numbers to call.

I had to wait until the next day but I called the lady in benefits and then she gave me the numbers to call for each benefit he might have had.

So as far as them knowing they have known for a couple of months.

Does that time count that the phone calls were made discussing the different benefits he had even if I had not sent a death certificate at that time.

It was a couple of weeks before I had a death certificate.

My main question is does the Summary Plan Description give me any information on the beneficary of his 401K?

Do the days count if Delta was notified by phone about his death? I didn't have anything to send at that time.

Do they have a statue of limitations for notifying the 401k beneficary?

Thanks and I am sorry for not being able to type things more clearly. My brain is mush at this time.

sandy

[Bird]

Sandy-

As I see it, you need to focus on one thing:

What does the last beneficiary designation say?

The hard part is figuring out who has it. It's not clear from your post where you're getting stuck; you say that Delta gave you numbers for his benefits - who was the 401(k) contact, Fidelity? And they're saying they don't have it? Then go back to Delta and tell them Fidelity says they don't have it.

To be honest, the Summary Plan Description is not going to tell you all that much...it's just a general description of the plan. The one thing that's in there that might help is that it will list the Plan Administrator. That's the person or company that is responsible for maintaining such records and that's ultimately where you have to go to get answers.

Good luck.

[Guest dulan]

Please tell me what else I can do.

My brother's 401k plan with Fidelity sent me a email today saying I was not the beneficiary.

I know he told me repeatly that I was his only survivor and then he would start talking about not having anyone, and then dying.

When he died it was unexpected and after arriving in Atlanta the next day his supervisor gave me a number to call for benefits.

This number was one person that gave me other numbers to call for each indivual benefit. One for the credit union, and one for his life insurance, and one for his 401k at Fidelity.

I called each one of them the next day and I was instructed what to do when I received his death certificate.

I did't have any problems with the credit union or his life insurance. But Fidelity is only getting worse.

I have been talking with a supervisor from Fidelity for over two weeks. She saw that I was getting the run around and wanted to work one on one with me.

I had mailed them his death certificate registered mail and they received it on Oct 10 2006, on Nov 13 2006 they received the copy of Administration I mailed after getting it from the Probate court making me the administrator of his estate.

When I sent the Letter of Testimentary I also wrote a letter saying I was claiming the Fidelity Family Care Savings P lan from Delta on behalf of his estate this is his 401K that was money he put into the account.

I gave all my information and all of his employee info.

I sent the samething to Delta with a request for the Summary Plan Description and ask for

any information on how to apply for his benefits.

Just a few days before I mailed the Letter to Delta I called and they didn't know what I was talking about when I requested a Summary Plan Description.

I have been to see an attorney but it will be next week before he can follow up. He had to be out of town.

When I have called Fidelity they say that thay do not see a beneficary and they are waiting on Delta's legal department to let them know something.

When I call Delta they tell me that Fidelity is a separate vendor and they don't have anything to do with it.

THis is when I call the number I was given to call right after my brother died. It is a lady that just gave me the different numbers to call for each one of his benefits.

One day she called me and said that my brother did not make the estate the beneficary and that I needed to call Fidelity to get the paper work to do an appeal.

When I called Fidelity they said they didn't have any beneficiary and they were trying to find out if Delta had one.

Then I get a email today without any name on is and it was from Delta saying I was not the beneficiary.

It also said to call Fidelity to find out anything else.

I called Fidelity and they could not tell me anything.

It was to late in the day to make any other calls.

I don't understand what could be so messed up.

My brother was divorced three times and the last wife he told me he had to take in a copy of his divorce decree to Delta plus it states that neither one have any rights to the others retirements.

I do have some papers taking her off of other benefits.

They were only married for a short while and my brother never had any children.

If he were going to leave it to anyone else he loved my daughter and she would have been his next of kin.

I never ask him about any of these things he would bring them up to me. I didn't like hearing him talk about dying. So I don't think he would have made someone else the beneficary.

Then on top of that I have to file estate tax just showing that there is not any inhertance taxes.

How can I do my job as the Administrator if I can't find out this information?

I don't think that the attorney I have can even get anyone to talk with that is higher up the chain of command.

I hope I made things more clear in this message.

Thanks for any help.

Sandy

[Bird]

Then I get a email today without any name on is and it was from Delta saying I was not the beneficiary.

It also said to call Fidelity to find out anything else.

I called Fidelity and they could not tell me anything.

I think that's all you needed to say.

I'm not sure if you have a right to know who the beneficiary is. It sounds like Delta and Fidelity are still passing the buck back and forth, and I think your attorney may have to be the one to pin them down. I wouldn't give up yet, but if there's another designation on file naming someone else, there's not much you can do about it without proof that it was superseded.

If there's no designation on file, that may be a good thing, because the plan should have a default beneficiary which probably goes 1) spouse (not married so n/a), 2) children (none so n/a), 3) estate (it might name parents and/or siblings before estate).

[Mike Preston]

You need to arrange for competent ERISA counsel and follow their advice.

They will probably argue that your best bet is to have them, as your attorney, write a formal letter to Delta asserting your belief that you are the beneficiary. That letter should be copied to Fidelity (although I don't think it really needs to be). That letter will let Delta know that you are making an actual claim for the death benefits. If they don't believe you are the proper beneficiary they will then need to respond within a certain period, as per the plan's policy (see the Summary Plan Description for what that policy is). If they don't respond, or even if they do, your attorney will need to be prepared to file suit against Delta on your behalf.

You really have no choice at this point other than to engage competent ERISA counsel to assert what you believe on your behalf.

If Delta wants to disuade you from pursuing this in court it is advisable for them to show you chapter and verse why they believe you are not the beneficiary.

Nothing is cut and dried here. Delta may not respond at all. On the other hand, they may send you everything you need to make a good decision as to how to go forward. Or, they may do something in between. What you do will depend on what they do and will depend on what your attorney advises you to do.

[Guest dulan]

Well I did send them a letter asking for the summary plan description and that I was claiming the benifit.

Then the attorney has already sent them a letter with more requests that was sent this thursday.

With just a email saying I was not the beneficiary I don't know how they even had my email address.

Since I am the administrator of his estate would that give me the authority to have access to all his information.

I do have to file a inhertance form showing the value of his estate I think. That is what we had to do in the state I live in. We didn't owe but just had to show the value of the estate and there is something I have to do and send to the IRS because they told me when they did away with his SS number.

I had to cancel his SS number and get a EIN number and so far the only place that has ask for it was the bank where I set up a estate account.

I want to do what ever my brother wanted with his things but he would mention this to me so often. He drank and he would get into saying things about dying and how he wanted things done. I love him so much I could not listen to this.

I do have papers he turned into delta taking his ex wife off of his other plans.

Delta knows that I am his only survivor. I was down on everything to be the person notified in an emergency.

So can Delta just keep me from knowing anything about the 401k if I don't go to court over it?

With me probating for his estate they don't have to let me know the details of his 401K?

On the request I made for the summary plan description I sent for a couple of weeks ago, and I know they have it because it was registered mail and I have the signature of the person that signed for it.

I had called before I wrote for it and they didn't know what I was talking about.

I was put through to two different people and neither knew what I was asking for.

I don't want to be so stressed over this. But I know how my brother felt and especially over wife number 3 and his money.

I hurt so much over losing him that I would like some shock therapy or anything so that I didn't feel this pain of losing him. And knowing he was dead for three days before they checked on him makes me feel worse. He never missed work. So if this turns into lawyers and having to find out the ex wife might still be on there is to hard.

She was mean to him and when he needed surgery for his feet she would not take him for it and I had to fly down and stay and then after that surgery he could not work for 4 months and then he never got the feeling back in his feet and that was because of his job. Standing on ladders and concrete is what the Dr said.

Sorry for all that I just hurt and sound off.

sandy

[Guest mjb]

If you pursue your claim for benefits the plan administrator can elect to interplead the question of who is entitled to the benefits by commencing a lawsuit against all potential beneficaires, deposit the $value of the benefits into court and then be dismissed from the case leaving the beneficaries to fight it out who is entitled to the $. You only need to file a federal estate tax return if the assets of your brother's estate exceed $2,000,000. You need to check with an estate attorney to determine if a state filing is required.

[doombuggy]

You have received some good advice here. While it will probably cost you some to get the attorney to work this out for you, I think it will be worth it - you sound very stressed and upset. Investment carriers like Fidelity usually do not keep beneficiary records. They are straight talking you there.

Ahile back when I worked for a large TPA firm in PA, I had a similar situation happen to a partiicpant in a plan for which I processed distributions. The participant died in a suspious auto accident. The paperwork the co had for him listed him as single and he designated his sons as the benes. Apparently, he was actually married, and she was a "person of interest" in the accident. Both the children and the estranged (or rather strange) wife were claiming the benefits. We advised the client (the company) to get council.

You have legal documents that indicate he was divorced. You mentioned that the divorce decree discussed the handling of the 401k with Delta. There was no QDRO? It sounds like there was not, since she did not receive any money from the 401k at the time of the divorce. I think the biggest proplem you have here is that you are talking to so many people (which can happen with a big company like Delta). Maybe you need to go online, find out who the HR director or VP is and have your attorney send him/her a certified letter!

Good luck to you, Sandy, and have a blessed holiday season. I know it will be tough for you, but try to keep good thoughts...your bro is in a better place, especially without that ex-wife...

[Just Me]

Despite what you may have been told, the employer is required to pay death benefits to the named beneficiary, not what someone thinks the employee may have intended.

If no beneficiary was named, the plan document will specify who is the beneficiary -- often it is the estate.

If neither you nor the estate are named as beneficary by the employee's beneficiary designation or the plan document, you have no claim and are not entitled to receive any explanation or documentation from the company or its third party administrator.

Harsh but true.

[Mike Preston]

Harsh, indeed. True? Not quite.

I believe the threshold required to force a plan into a position of having to follow its own rules with respect to a potential claim for benefits (including issuing explanation letters as to why a claim is denied, for example) is a bit lower than what you imply.

Only competent ERISA counsel can help determine the threshold for this particular individual and the plan in question.

You might want to search on things like "colorable claim" or "arbitrary and capricious" for discussions on this point.

To put it another way, let's presume the worst in that the beneficiary designation form still lists the last ex-wife as the beneficiary. Even in that case, if there are other documents that appear to nullify the beneficiary designation, I would probably want to have a court of competent jurisdiction make the determination, probably through an interpleader action, rather than just assume that the harsh result you imply is inevitable.

But this is for competent ERISA counsel to help an individual decide how to pursue.

[Just Me]

I agree that any further action needs competent counsel's assistance. I was merely trying to explain that unless a person is the named/default beneficiary, the Plan sponsor and third party administrator have no obligation to provide the requested information, and more importantly, no authority to make a distribution to the plan to such person.