What to put on Form 5500 as the 'name' of a retirement plan's 'trust'?

[austin3515]

What is the name of the Trust? Am I crazy or would this be the name of the Plan (unless the Trust specifically includes a different name).

[Belgarath]

Are you crazy?

You must be - you are a TPA!

I don't recall anywhere on the 5500 form that asks for the name of the Trust? What line/form/schedule are you referring to? Just asks for the name of the Plan, I thought. At any rate, I agree you would use the plan name, unless I'm missing something.

[austin3515]

5500-SF, Line 14a

Schedule H/I, Line 6a

Sincerely,

The Crazy TPA

[Belgarath]

Don't confuse me with facts!

Since it is optional, I suspect it is usually ignored (except for the crazies...)

I see your point. And it seems to also be mixing apples and oranges - it mentions different custodial accounts but then asks for the Trust's id #. I suppose if you had 70% of your assets with Fidelity, and 30% with Merrill Lynch, then you would enter Fidelity. But then, what do you use for the "Trust's EIN?" I say, don't fill out the blasted line until it is mandatory, and perhaps at that time, they will issue better instructions. But, hopefully someone who actually knows the answer to this will respond, 'cause I'm quite puzzled by this as well.



Part III – Trust Information (Optional)
Line 6a. (Optional) You may use this line to enter the “Name of
trust.” If a plan uses more than one trust or custodial account
for its fund, you should enter the primary trust or custodial
account in which the greatest dollar amount or largest
percentage of the plan assets as of the end of the plan year is
held on this Line. For example, if a plan uses three different
trusts, X, Y, Z, with the percentages of plan assets, 35%, 45%,
and 20%, respectively, trust Y that held the 45% of plan assets
would be entered in Line 6a.

[austin3515]

Ah, but that's just it. The IRS is making it mandatory for 2015. At least that's their intent (the 2015 5500-SUP is still in draft form).

Clear as mud.

[Belgarath]

Hmmm... mud is right! I guess I'd hope for better instructions or some IRS clarification. If none is forthcoming, I'd probably use the Plan Name and Trust id#.

[austin3515]

But if there is no trust ID#, then use the sponsor's EIN?

[Bill Presson]

We don't use a Trust EIN if the plan is a daily valued plan and the assets are held by a custodian (eg TDA Trust, MG Trust, etc).

If the plan uses brokerage accounts, we always apply for a trust EIN.

I would think it's pretty rare for a plan to have multiple trusts (though we have a couple) and typically a brokerage account isn't going to use the custodial EIN.

[Tom Poje]

I suppose what will be even more fun is the SUP asks

trustee name and phone number

[Tom Poje]

Austin -

they plan to modify the 5500-SUP and include the following:

Good place for us to SUP when we come for an audit.

Guess that explains the name of the form.

[Peter Gulia]

Is there an opportunity to identify the plan's trust (or each trust if there is more than one)?

(If the statute of limitations has run out on a threat to tax the trust's income, that sometimes can help move a negotiation.)

[austin3515]

Announcement 2007-63

For plan years in which the Schedule P is eliminated, the Service will treat

the plan’s filing of a return from the applicable Form 5500 series as if the filing

constitutes a return of the plan’s employee benefit trust for purposes of

§ 6501(g)(2). Thus, the Service will not assess income taxes with respect to an

employee benefit trust later than the limitations periods specified in section 6501

for the assessment of tax related to the Form 5500 filed by the plan to which the

trust relates.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/a-07-63.pdf

[Peter Gulia]

austin3515, thank you for recalling the IRS announcement.

It starts a statute-of-limitations period on "the plan's filing of a return from the applicable Form 5500 series[.]" And the IRS might assert that "filing" means "a complete and accurate Form 5500 series (including all related schedules."

So perhaps this takes us to your observation that the IRS proposes to require more information.

[Kevin C]

But if there is no trust ID#, then use the sponsor's EIN?

The proposed instructions say:

Line 3b. Enter the trust’s employer

identification number (EIN) assigned to

the employee benefit trust or custodial

account, if one has been issued to the

trust. The trust EIN should be used for

transactions conducted for the trust. If you

do not have a trust EIN, enter the EIN you

would use on Form 1099-R to report

distributions from employee benefit plans

and on Form 945 to report withheld

amounts of income tax from those

payments

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-dft/i5500sup--dft.pdf