Stock in Irrevocable Trust

[Vlad401k]

We have a situation where a father is an over 5% owner in a company. He has a son who works at the company as well. So, the son should automatically be an HCE by attribution.

However, the stock shares that the father owns are in an irrevocable trust! The question is this: is the son still considered an HCE? My thinking is that the fact that the trust is irrevocable should not affect the ownership and the son is still an HCE. What do you think?

[Vlad401k]

Now I'm rethinking my position... if the trust is irrevocable, is the father even considered an owner? Assuming all of his shares are in the irrevocable living trust, doesn't he surrender all ownership of those assets? Are the beneficiaries of the irrevocable living trust considered owners?

[K2retire]

Who is the beneficiary of the trust? Who is the trustee?

[Vlad401k]

We do not know yet.

Assuming the son is the beneficiary, does he immediately become HCE? Does the father also become an HCE by attribution?

What if someone else is the beneficiary, like a charity. Does no one receive the ownership interest in that case?