Deceased Mom's 401k - No Will

[whyindaheck]

My mother passed away May of 2015. She had a retirement account but apparently named no beneficiary. She is survived by her only two children, My sister and I. However she was also survived by her own brother and two sisters, my aunts and uncle. I am attempting to settle her accounts. I received a packet from fidelity informing me to complete the packet in its entirety and have it, along with a copy of my mother's death certificate with a raised seal mailed back to them.

I have the official death certificate along with a copy to be sent.

My mother has no spouse no partner etc. However, she was once married to my father and divorced when I was young. The packet asks for the date of divorce. My father cannot remember a date or year and doesn't have any files as they have been divorced for over 20 years. What am I to do if I cannot accurately suply fidelity with the information on the divorce?

The packet also asks who has survived my mother, and asks for these people's social security numbers to be listed. For various reasons, her siblings are unwilling to provide me with the social security numbers. My sister is also unwilling. What do I do in this situation?

My sister is the oldest of the two of us.

[austin3515]

I'm sorry for your loss.

Ask Fidelity for the Summary Plan Description. The SPD should tell you who the default beneficiaries are. It is almost always in this order: 1) the spouse (if married), 2) the kids (split up evenly) if any, and 3) the estate. Of course check the SPD, but I've never seen aunts/uncles/siblings come into the analysis.

It is really your mother's former employer that is required to pay the money to the right person. So you should be an informed consumer, but it's not your responsibility to figure this out. Call the HR department.

The actual date of divorce should be moot assuming the death certificate indicates the marital status as divorced. See if supplying a few years of old tax returns indicating "single" will keep them quiet.

[david rigby]

My sympathy for your loss.

If you contact the employer (ie, the sponsor of the plan), they might refer you to contact Fidelity. If so, don't think of this as a brush-off, but is probably a form of "out-sourcing", with day-to-day administrative responsibilities transferred to Fidelity.

Austin is correct that you should inquire about the plan's default definition of beneficiary. It is not necessary to provide all the personal information for all the survivors, only for those who meet the beneficiary default.

[hr for me]

Some states have marriage and divorce records online. Do you know what state they were divorced in? Or a county would even be better..... Contact them and they should be able to provide the date of divorce.

[jpod]

Can you type in a reply here the exact language Fidelity used to inquire about "survivors"? I would be surprised if it was so vague. I would think the questions would be more pointed and aligned with the actual default beneficiary rules under the plan.

[My 2 cents]

As always, the first and most important question is "What does the plan say?"

I have seen default beneficiary definitions that include siblings, parents etc.

In a typical one, the default order is (1) spouse, (2) natural and adopted children and children of deceased children per stirpes, (3) the participant's parents in equal shares, (4) brothers and sisters of the participant and the children of deceased siblings per stirpes, and, finally, (5) the estate.

Unless the 401(k) plan specifies that if there is no named beneficiary then the proceeds go to the deceased participant's estate (or otherwise the default goes directly from spouse to estate), then there being children and siblings here, the money might not go to the estate. If the money does go to the estate and the participant died intestate, then you must fall back on the state's intestate succession laws (not a lawyer - is that term only suitable for crowning the successor to a deceased monarch?). My expectation is that "children" almost certainly outrank "siblings" whichever state's laws come into play.

[jpod]

Let's hope it doesn't go to the estate because that would be complicated and some/all of it could be eaten up by Mom's creditors.

[K2retire]

The packet also asks who has survived my mother, and asks for these people's social security numbers to be listed. For various reasons, her siblings are unwilling to provide me with the social security numbers. My sister is also unwilling. What do I do in this situation?

The plan cannot legally pay someone out without reporting the distribution to the IRS as income. In order for your sister to receive her share of the account (assuming it is ultimately determined that it goes to you and her) she will have to supply a Social Security number to the plan. Until it is determined who the beneficiaries are, there is no need for anyone to collect the SSNs.

[Belgarath]

Perhaps, once you get this straightened out, Fidelity (or the Plan Administrator) will allow your sister to provide her SSN directly to them, so you won't see it? Maybe, for whatever reason, she just doesn't want you to see it...

[whyindaheck]

Can you type in a reply here the exact language Fidelity used to inquire about "survivors"? I would be surprised if it was so vague. I would think the questions would be more pointed and aligned with the actual default beneficiary rules under the plan.

The packet has a page that asks if my mother was survived by any children. The very next page has a section that asks "was the deceased participant survived by any siblings? It then goes on to provide locations to be able to list siblings and has a section for each siblings social security number.

[Bird]

Fidelity is being Fidelity - just asking for anything and everything, whether they need it or not. With the caveat that we don't know if the plan has a default bene des that effectively names you and your sister, I'd either ignore the siblings page or write "not applicable" or something to that effect. If they don't like that and say that they need the info, you're going to have to ask "why" because it really is irrelevant. And "because" is not an acceptable answer - they should not be creating artificial impediments to you receiving your money. Don't be afraid to argue with them.

[austin3515]

Bird you are overlooking something obvious. Fidelity is the biggest by far. So what that means is, it is their inalienable right to be difficult, perform bad service, and pretend to be compliance specialists but routinely blame the client for compliance mishaps that they never even caught on their own (the auditor did). And of course a 3 month lead time for amendments is definitely worth all the wait since it is Fidelity doing it! Elapsed time for vesting? Why not! So what if it's a bad plan design for their client, it's easier for Fidelity! Want to include taxable fringe benefits because it benefits the owner? That's just too bad BUT you do get to work with Fidelity!

So please, cut them some slack!

[Kevin C]

whyindaheck, I would complete the form through the section on surviving children and leave the parts asking about siblings blank. If your sister doesn't want to provide her SSN for the form, leave it off of the form. It can be provided later. Then, see how Fidelity responds.

As mentioned, dealing with Fidelity usually tests your patience.

[My 2 cents]

Agreed. Do NOT leave the surviving children page blank! Fill in what you can and submit it. While you are at it, write in the names that belong on the siblings page so it doesn't look like you are trying to cut them out. If you don't have SSNs, don't worry about it. As noted above, that can be dealt with later. If it is determined that payments should go to someone, they will be asked for that information.

If the lack of a surviving spouse makes the estate the default beneficiary (again, what does the PLAN say about this?), then it becomes a matter of dealing with the participant's estate under the applicable intestate laws.

[whyindaheck]

Alright guys thanks a ton for the advice. You've all alleviated a ton of stress.