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- 403(b)(9) non-electing church plan
- Multiple employer plan
- The plan (not the 700 individual participating employers) sets the definition of compensation when it comes to calculating contributions based on a percentage.
- This one employer used the wrong definition of comp and consequently shorted deferral contributions for the employee since 2021 (yikes)
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- Do you agree that the deferral limit for the Company B 401(k) Plan does not need to be pro-rated based on the number of days it was in existence vs. the SIMPLE IRA?
- Since catch-up contributions are separate to each Plan, can a 50+ participant who contributed $10k to the SIMPLE IRA under Company A defer an additional $24.5k to the Company B 401(k) Plan? ($6.5k SIMPLE deferrals, $3.5k SIMPLE catch-up, $17k 401(k) deferrals, $7.5k 401(k) catch-up)
- If the Company B employees are still employees of Company A and participating in the Company A SIMPLE IRA, does that matter? Or is it just a consideration in that both the non-catch up deferrals to each arrangement count towards their overall 402(g) limit?
- As I write this out, I imagine that a relevant consideration is whether Company B and Company A constitute an ASG. If they do, would their contributions be subject to the adjusted deferral limits based on the days/365 of each arrangement?
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Can Relius calculate earnings on late deferrals?
If so, is there a stock report I can run? Do I ahve to get my backend team ro create a crystal report for this?
More questions:
I think maybe I'm asking if there is a rate of return report that can be run with ad hoc dates?
Could it be run on a plan-wide level but with participant detail?
The accounts are daily-valued in the Relius ecosystem.
Another Cafeteria Plan Nondiscrimination Test Conundrum
A small employer offers only fully insured medical insurance to its employees and employees pay their share of the cost of coverage through a cafeteria plan. One (and only one) highly compensated employee is provided with additional cash compensation for opting out of the medical coverage.
Does this violate the benefits portion of the cafeteria plan nondiscrimination tests? If so, what is the consequence to the one HCE?
Thanks.
Retiring the end of this year - hurray!
I have made the (not all all difficult) decision to retire at the end of this year. I have agreed to work a couple of days a week during the early part of next year to help out my employer while they hire a replacement, but it's a limited engagement. I'll be lurking on these boards for a while yet.
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Dave and Lois for providing this magnificent resource - it has been a tremendous asset! I'd also like to thank all of you folks, past and present, for the invaluable assistance you have given to me over the years. I've certainly taken more than I've given, and your time, generosity, and expertise is appreciated more than you can ever know. It's not just the technical expertise, but the sounding board for discussions, sometimes griping (misery loves company) and humor in the face of statutory and regulatory foolishness that makes this such a great community.
I wish you all the best in your future endeavors (I'm trying hard not to gloat) as you continue in this business, and I hope you all have a great Holiday season! Take care, and again, a heartfelt thanks!!!
Plan Installation Manager
Roth Catch up required or not
Plan Sponsor has non-union and union compensated employees. Union compensation is excluded from the plan. One of the employees will have W-2 FICA wages of about $70,000 in non-union compensation for 2025 and W-2 FICA wages in union compensation of about $125,000 for 2025. Is the union compensation included to determine if the employee's compensation is over $150,000 for Roth catch up for 2026?
Lead Operations Specialist - Retirement Plans
Correction of SAR grant below FMV
Plan granted SARs with exercise price below FMV. Grant was in 2020, vested in 2021, 2022, and 2023. No rights have been exercised. Notice 2008-113 provides for correction only if correction is made in year of grant or by end of year following year of grant. If no rights have been exercised, is it possible to still use 2008-113?
Also, now that we're in 409A land, what if the SAR grant satisfies all the requirements of 409A, meaning (1) specifies number of SARs granted (2) specifies exercise period (5 years from vesting date) (3) specifies exercise price. Or, is this not sufficient since there is no specific exercise date, only an exercise period - 5 years from vesting.
Do we still have income at vesting? Or is this ok if otherwise satisfies section 409A requirements?
Wrong definition of compensation used to calculate deferrals in multiple employer plan
Background:
I am unsure what correction method is appropriate and didn't find anything specific in Rev. Proc. 2021-30. I also read a page on the IRS website that states the plan can amend the definition of compensation, but that does not seem reasonable with a multiple employer plan where there is one definition for all employers to follow.
How does the employer fix this? Can the employer provide an employer contribution for 50% of missed deferral portion? Is there something clear cut I am missing?
TIA for your responses.
Compliance Consultant
ASG: Are Schools/Day Cares service organizations?
If a company is in the business of offering early childhood education (infant to pre-K), kindergarten, before and after school programs, and summer programs do you think that constitutes a service organization?
I've reviewed the Who's the Employer's ASG chapter and conducted supplementary research, but I can't find anything on-point. I know educational services do not count as consulting, so that avenue is closed.
I lean towards concluding that the school is a service organization because the material income producing part of their business is the teachers' services, rather than capital. But I could be persuaded the other way too.
Regional Vice President, Retirement Sales: KY, TN, NC, SC Territory
Form 5330 filed electronically late with an excise tax due
We use FT Williams. We tried to help a client file a 5330 to pay the excise tax for an over contribution. FT Williams tells us the filing rejected because the form was late and money was due. They however don't give us any insight how to get the payment and filing done in the correct order.
If anyone has done this successfully we could use some insights on how to do this.
This was so much easier with the old paper forms.
Distributions Processor - Qualified Retirement Plans
Combo Retirement Plan Consultant
DB Retirement Plan Consultant
SIMPLE IRA & Mid-Year SH 401(k) - Separate Plan Sponsors
I'd love the thinking of folks who are more well-versed in SIMPLEs. Didn't get any traction on the other board, so I thought I'd try the 401(k) board since it does involve one.
Company A maintains a SIMPLE IRA in 2024 & 2025; several employees of Company A create their own Company B in 2025. Company A maintained a SIMPLE IRA (I'm not sure if the SIMPLE IRA is still active); Company B established a 06/01/25 effective date SH 401(k) Plan (short initial Plan Year). Company A & B have different EINS with no ownership crossover.
I understand that when an employer establishes a mid-year 401(k) Plan that the deferral limit is adjusted based on the # of days/365 of each arrangement. Because these are two unrelated employers, my thinking is that this does not apply to this scenario, so all EEs can contribute the total $23.5k between the two arrangements if they would like (a maximum of $16.5k being attributable to the SIMPLE IRA).
IRS Online Application for EIN (Form SS-4) Issues
For some time now (both before and after the shutdown), I have had technical difficulties getting an EIN issued online. Roughly nine times out of ten I will get the message "Apply for an Employer Identification Number (EIN) online is currently unavailable
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. Please refresh your browser or try again later." The most frustrating part is that you have to complete the entire application process before getting this message.
The few times a number was issued, it just seemed random. I have tried deleting cookies, using different browsers, and applying at different times of the day.
Are any of you having similar difficulties? Do you have other suggestions or insights that could help?
My thanks in advance for any ideas.





