RatherBeGolfing

Brevard just got added https://www.fema.gov/disaster/4337

FEMA disaster link IRS grants relief to counties identified for individual assistance by FEMA. As of right now, Brevard is not on the list, but neither is Polk county and they got hit really hard so additional counties will have to be added. Also, under 2017-13, a participant could request a hardship distribution if they or a lineal ascendant or descendant, dependent, or spouse had their principal residence or place of employment in one of the identified counties. You could easily make the argument that a loan would would be counterproductive or add to the hardship, so no, I don't think you need to worry about exhausting loans first.

Thanks Lois! I'll add it to my original post to keep it as up to date as possible

IRS Gives Tax Relief to Victims of Hurricane Irma; Like Harvey, Extension Filers Have Until Jan. 31 to File; Additional Relief Planned Current relief is limited to any area designated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), as qualifying for individual assistance. Right now, that means US Virgin Island, Puerto Rico and some parts of Florida. The scope of the relief will most definitely be broadened to include more Florida counties, but as of right now, the following counties have been designated as qualifying for individual assistance (and therefore tax relief): Brevard (added 9/13) Broward Charlotte Clay Collier Duval Flagler Hillsborough Lee Manatee Miami-Dade Monroe Orange (added 9/13) Palm Beach Pasco (added 9/13) Pinellas Polk (added 9/13) Putnam Sarasota St. Johns St. Lucie (added 9/13) IRS Announcement 2017-13 allows loans and hardship withdrawals for Hurricane Irma victims, similar to relief announced for Hurricane Harvey Useful links FEMA disaster link You can use this link to view FEMA declared disasters by state or tribal government. IRS News Releases You can use this link view updated news releases from the IRS for the month of September IRS Hurricane Irma Page IRS Disaster Tax Relief page Effens Thread on Funding Relief for DB Plans (Notice 2017-49) * Edited to add more information when available

Great to hear you did ok Tom!

Checking in from Apollo Beach / Tampa area. We got very lucky since she turned east just south of us, pushing the eyewall to our east. We escaped a direct hit and stayed on the west side of the storm which is considered the "clean" side. The "dirty" side has stronger wind gusts, more surge, and more tornadic activity. We still had Cat 1 type winds which is enough to cause damage but most homes will be structurally fine. We have some downed trees and some minor roof damage. The roof damage led to some leaks and we will need to pull some drywall in the ceiling and walls and make sure we don't get any mold issues but that is really more of an inconvenience all things considered. We also never lost power which is amazing because it is out in all areas around us. I spoke to some friends in the Jax/St/ Augustine area and they were having strong winds and power outages as recent as an hour ago. I hope everyone is OK, I look forward to hearing good things from all who were/are in Irma's path!

Well it looks like you guys are fairly safe on the east coast. We are still staying put in Tampa. I'm right between evac zone C and D and even on the current track it isn't likely that they will have mandatory evacuation of C or above. I'm staying positive. When this is over we can all have a drink in the bar at Annual and compare pictures of bending trees and water in the streets. Stay safe everyone!

I don't disagree that an AP could a hardship if she meets the requirements. Obviously not my document or concern, but I'm curious how she meets the hardship requirements when she is eligible for a distribution. In reality, what is the difference between the taking $10,000 as a distribution per the QDRO, or $10,000 as a hardship from the segregated account? Withholding requirements?

We are in the 3rd evac zone, just outside the flood zone. My neighbor was in coast guard meetings all day yesterday and as of last night, they are more concerned with wind than floods for my area. If it comes up land it could be a cat 2 when it reaches the Tampa area. We are prepping for the worst and hoping for the best.

We are staying put in Tampa and keeping an eye on the changes. It should start the turn sometime today but most models are going up the center of the state which means both coasts will get hurricane strength winds but hopefully all that land will slow it down. Good luck everyone!

I can't promise it will be on a test, but it is in the study guides

It hasn't changed, still tested as excluding earnings. Do the calculation contributions alone.

Nope. They provide you with the means to maintain your own document. There is a big difference. They do not make sure the document is properly filled out, or that you make timely amendments, or that you keep all necessary documents in a safe place, etc. That is all on you. Trust me, the people who frequent these boards have taken many Vanguard and Fidelity plans through correction programs for this very reason.

The Plan does not prevent AP from taking a distribution, so the hardship question is moot. Even if we came to the conclusion that an AP could take a hardship, wouldn't you fail the immediate and heavy financial need requirement if you have other distributions options? What the AP wants is really irrelevant here since the need can be satisfied without the hardship.

No 411(d)(6) cutback issue with excluding FUTURE participation for a current participant. Any benefit the participant has already accrued is protected, but you can eliminate continued participation. We had a good discussion in this earlier this year in this thread

Wow that is very odd for a 401(k) plan. I guess if I'm in your shoes i would just document every conversation and put it in a CYA file. Im glad none of my clients have found this particular platform

This makes me curious how it is set up with the platform since the PA (commonly the plan sponsor) should make the deposit and it sounds like you are saying the platform wont issue a check to the trustee?

That pretty much sums it up

IF he was over paid, the trustees of the plan have a duty to make the plan whole. If they can't get the money from the participant, and IRA refuses to distribute it (which isn't surprising since I still don't think we have been given a clear understanding of what happened, and if I was the IRA I wouldn't release any funds either), that leaves the trustee or the sponsor on the hook for the money or to go after a service provider if that is where the problem came from. As for the deposit of withholding, it is not the duty of the investment company, it is the duty of the PLAN. If the investment company wont do it (they rarely do), the plan needs to find a service provider who will. You can't pass the buck by saying its lack of procedure with the investment company. If the plan relies on an outside consultant like a TPA for admin and compliance, that firm needs to look at their procedures or at least tell the client what the law requires and tell them why it is not being followed so they can make a decision on whether to proceed with their current service providers or look for new ones. BTW, the withholding party (plan administrator) is liable for the collection and deposit of taxes. This means that if you fail to withhold and deposit the taxes, and the IRS cannot collect the taxes from the participant, the IRS can recover from the withholding party... Something to consider

Absolutely, check ALL costs before you make a decision. Pay extra attention to details when someone tells you its "free" or no charge. Its never free, they are making money somewhere and the trick is finding out where so that you can compare apples to apples. The same goes for pricing a firm to do the outside document, review ALL fees from the initial document, maintenance, and termination.

Vanguard and Fidelity will both let you open accounts with a document that isn't theirs. Many of us who post on this board have our own documents that our clients can use pretty much anywhere. Many of our clients have accounts with Vanguard and Fidelity. For Vanguard and Fidelity, it is just a matter of opening account type "A" that uses their document, or "B" that uses an outside document. An outside document will also be more flexible in what you can/cannot do, allow you to move from one vendor to another without terminating the plan, etc. The downside is that an outside document will cost you a certain amount to set up and maintain. So you will need to determine what is more important, the "free" document or the flexibility that comes with an outside document and the help of a retirement professional. When you shop around for "free" documents, pay very close attention termination fees as "free" plans usually cost nothing to start but a bundle to close down. Many times the fee to terminate a "free" plan can add up to more than what it would cost you to get a document from an outside source. Termination fees easily get up to over $1,000. Ask for a copy of their 408b-2 disclosure and read it. It is boring stuff but can save you money in the end. I hope that helps.

Most likely, Vanguard will make you use their prototype document to open the account. In that case, it should be plan 002, and would be a separate plan meaning separate Form 5500s. The big question is WHY do you want two plans? Is it just because you want to invest at Vanguard in addition to Fidelity? A "better document" would be one that is not locked to any particular investment house. For example, if I were to set the plan up on the volume submitter document my firm sponsors, I would also obtain an EIN for the plan as it is its own entity. You could then take it to Fidelity, Vanguard, Morgan Stanley, or wherever you want, and open an account in the name and EIN of the trust (the plan). Its really as simple as that, all you need is the EIN and the a copy of the plan document. In this case, you would have ONE plan, ONE 5500, but however many investments you want.

And I agree with ETA, MoJo, and Cuse... I believe we have enough for a quorum

While Vanguard and Fidelity are reputable companies, their plan documents are only as good and effective as the person who uses them. You might look at their "solo-k" adoption agreements and think that it is very simple and just a few options to pick from. But have you read and do you understand the base plan document that is the bulk of the governing document for the plan? The BPD is where the plans spell out how they comply with all the applicable laws and what the plan's default positions are. For example, the adoption agreement might let include or exclude a few items from compensation, but the BPD spells out 10 items that are included or excluded by default, and you wouldn't know what they are by looking at the adoption agreement. The adoption agreement is simply a tool that adjusts the BPD on a few points where it is flexible. You know that you can contribute 25% as an employer contribution, that is great. Do you know what is included in the compensation that is used to calculate the 25%? Not knowing or assuming that something is either included or excluded can cause you to either contribute in excess of 25% which is problem, or not contributing enough and shorting yourself. These are just a few examples of where it is really easy make a mistake, but also easy to prevent one if you know what you are doing. Like others on this board, I make good money cleaning up simple plans like this after they have been screwed up. I make very little money on the one participant plans that I actually service, but it is easy for me to keep them in line since I work with the legal framework that applies to them everyday. Ultimately, it is up to you whether you try to do it yourself with the "free" template you get from an investment house or seek professional assistance. You can probably even find a practitioner who will go along with using the investment house document over their own document, and only charge you for their time in designing the plan according to your wishes and keeping it up to date. Likewise, you can probably find someone who will only charge a few hundred each year to help you calculate your contributions, make sure they are deposited timely, other administrative issues, and government reporting that can make for an easy trap for the non-practitioner. Good luck!

Yes. Balances allocated as of 2015 count towards TH determination for 2016. The late contribution is a separate issue.