No posting of reprints of articles published elsewhere

[Dave Baker]

New policy:

No posting of reprints from articles published elsewhere.

Moderators, please delete any such messages.

Thanks,

Dave Baker

Administrator

[BG5150]

New policy:

No posting of reprints from articles published elsewhere.

Moderators, please delete any such messages.

Thanks,

Dave Baker

Administrator

But will reasonably-sized portions of an article be okay when given proper credit? Like, maybe a paragraph or two.

[GMK]

I think that an exception for reprinting sections of the regulations would be OK. That is often very useful.

Otherwise, I like Mr. Baker's policy. Reprinting copyrighted material generally requires the expressed permission of the author (or the publisher to whom the author gave the rights). There's no need for us to be messing with that.

The other issue is how to define "reasonably-sized." We've all seen certain reprints posted that are one paragraph long, but go for 40 lines or more.

Links get us to previously published material in most cases.

I don't know the reason for this new policy, but I can see a few reasons to support it.

[david rigby]

This is great! It also points out the "L" part of Benefitslink.

Short comments that list the highlights of other articles or references are often more useful than a lengthy posting.

[Dave Baker]

I apologize for my arrogance -- I have the key to most of the buttons and levers that run the software, but it's everybody's community. Thanks for these great comments.

My frustration is with the continued frequent posting of the full text of articles that have been printed in magazines. First, I don't know whether the magazine publisher would permit it. Second, publication of articles is not consistent with the purpose of the message boards. Third, the articles that have been published tend to be have highly promotional aspects, which again is not consistent with the purpose of the message boards. Fourth, the articles generally are from past issues of the magazines, not concerning breaking news. And several users of the message boards have written to me to express their frustration and displeasure with what's been happening. Hence my goal in setting a "policy" is to be clear and public as to what's out of bounds, and to encourage moderators to enforce it.

So the proposed policy is:

"No posting of reprints of the full text of articles published elsewhere. (Government documents are not considered articles.)"

What do you think?

[GMK]

I like the original policy better when the clarification about government documents is included.

Delete one word from the article and it's not the "full text." And I think he'd play that game.

edit: typos

[Ron Snyder]

We'll go along with whatever you decide because you "have the key to most of the buttons and levers that run the software". However: (1) It's nice of you to ask for input; (2) there should definitely be a policy related to posting of published materials; and (3) there need to be reasonable allowances when quoting another source is necessary. Seldom is more than a couple of paragraphs required.

[Peter Gulia]

Because BenefitsLink is a publisher, it's smart to be respectful of other publishers' property and rights.

On posting (rather than linking to) an article or other publication, perhaps BenefitsLink should limit that to a short excerpt that is within fair use under U.S. copyright law. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Another use that BenefitsLink might permit is if the poster is the author and still owns the rights.

[Jim Norman]

Thank you Dave.

It is hardly "arrogance" on your part merely because you want to keep your message board from being carpet bombed with multiple postings of nearly identical articles across forums, repeated over and over again.

Jim

[Kevin C]

New policy:

No posting of reprints from articles published elsewhere.

If there is going to be a policy change, I would prefer the original new policy, with the clarification that government documents are not considered articles. But, I'm not as optimistic as others seem to be that the individual causing the problem will follow the rules.

Dave, It's your forum. Whatever you decide is OK with me.

[Belgarath]

What Kevin said goes for me as well.

[Effen]

I agree, great rule Dave. It is still a copywrite issue if the author is posting his/her own article?

However, I was wondering, when a Sitewide Moderator executes their power and deletes, moves, or closes a thread, do you get notified?

[Dave Baker]

I agree, great rule Dave. It is still a copywrite issue if the author is posting his/her own article?

Generally not, but it is not uncommon for a publisher to require an author to assign his copyright to the publisher as a condition for publishing the work. (The publisher wants exclusivity, doesn't want a competitor also publishing the work, wants to know it's the first one to publish the work, etc.)

However, I was wondering, when a Sitewide Moderator executes their power and deletes, moves, or closes a thread, do you get notified?

No.

[GMK]

I agree with Kevin C, primarily because of the copyright issues.

If the new policy doesn't stop the carpet bombing, I recommend using "Ignore Posts" under My Controls (credit to Chaz for pointing it out). It's currently my favorite optional feature of the boards.

[BG5150]

I agree, great rule Dave. It is still a copywrite issue if the author is posting his/her own article?

Then the author should provide and summary and then a link to the full article.

I don't see any purpose of posting full articles on a message board. Say what you want to say, and link to further clarification, expansion, opinion, etc.

[movedon]

I don't see any purpose of posting full articles on a message board.

The purpose is free, nearly effortless marketing. Spammers should be banned, whether their product is pension-related or fake Viagra.

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

The silent majority have not spoken. They are the 2500 plus views to a post with an article that most of you people object to. By you people I mean 15 or so of you that sell or have friends that sell these scams and object to my posts. The facts are many of your members READ the posts and contact me for more information.

Either you people sell the scams, 419, 412i, captive insurance or section 79 scams, or you defend them, or your friends do. I own copywrites to most of my articles, and books so that point is moot. It is true that most publishers want to own them, but if they want my stuff they dont get to own it. Why go to a link when you can read it all. If it is too long dont read or look, and boy do my posts get looks, lots of them. I also get lots of call, emails and faxes, from your members that want more information. And I have NEVER charged any of them anything. This does not promote my business but HELPS your readers.

Many of your members have also helped me update the many CPE books that I write, and as a result they have gained lots of new business. Some of your members come to see me when I speak at conventions, and that does benefit me. I have however droped my speaking activities from about 60 per year to just a few because I am too busy with my new career of expert witness, my side has never lost a case. I even won for two different defendants that had sold these scams. I felt badly because they were just dumb, and didnt think that they were doing anything wrong.

You people may want to Google Lance Wallach. And I have my information listed in my profile, unlike most of you cowards. I have nothing to hide unlike many of you. I am not refering to Ron or Dave who are good men. It is Daves board and he can do what he wants. I have my board, www.financeExperts.org and I do what I want with limited imput from members.

Thanks for reading this long post, just like you ALL do with my long articles.

Lance Wallach who represents many of the BenefitsLink message boards silent majority.

[movedon]

And there's the problem with the policy - nice idea, but it's not going to reduce the spam. At best it'll change the format - and that assumes voluntary compliance by the spammer.

The policy also doesn't eliminate the misleading use of the "friend" function. If you don't know what I'm talking about, click on the spammer's name and look at his/her profile. That's what the marks will see when curiousity leads them there.

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

And click on lippys profile and see that he does not list that he promotes abusive tax shelters, he hides.

[Dave Baker]

And click on lippys profile and see that he does not list that he promotes abusive tax shelters, he hides.

This is not helpful.

[GMK]

New policy:

No posting of reprints from articles published elsewhere.

If there is going to be a policy change, I would prefer the original new policy, with the clarification that government documents are not considered articles. But, I'm not as optimistic as others seem to be that the individual causing the problem will follow the rules.

Dave, It's your forum. Whatever you decide is OK with me.

After further review of the arguments against the policy, I continue to support the policy as Kevin C posted, and remain convinced that this policy is consistent with and promotes the purposes of these boards.

I stand with Dave.

For what it's worth, I do not sell or defend investment/insurance/tax shelter/pension/etc. products, including scams, and I have no friends.

[BG5150]

Whereas wanting to "educate" people about abusive tax dodges or illegal schemes or explaining the infield fly rule might be altruistic reasons for posting articles, to me, message boards are for just that: messages. Questions & Answers. Maybe some helpful information.

But if that helpful information is going to take up half or more of my screen real estate, it doesn't belong on a message board. Once again, summarize and post a link.

Even if posting entire articles were permitted, whose job would it be to verify the copyright holder?

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

There are no stupid questions; there are only stupid people.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.

Do you mind if I copy the above, or is it copyrighted? I have too many friends, want to buy any?

[david rigby]

Did your mother ever tell you to "play nice"?

If not, consider it said, please.

[Effen]

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.

Four lefts make you a NASCAR driver!

[BG5150]

Four lefts make you a NASCAR driver!

Except on road courses, of course.

[wvbeachgirl]

Couple of comments from one of the "silent" members:

VEBAPLAN, you are making a lot of assumptions about the "silent" members. I happen to agree with Dave's policy. A link to an article is sufficient for those who want to read the entire article. Copying and pasting it here makes a post too long.

With regard to many of your comments, they come across as extremely arrogant and bullying, which is a big turn off to me and a big reason why I for one have learned NOT to view any of your posts. As for calling people "cowards" and "dumb" and accusing them of "hiding" - this is not professional and is uncalled for in my humble opinion. There are many legitimate reasons for not listing information in a profile, especially in today's cyber climate. It is a personal decision, and for you to denigrate anyone who chooses to not list information is very unprofessional.

Please do not assume that you speak for all of the "silent" members of this board.

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.

I realy like the above one.

By silent members I mean the hundreds of members that have contacted me over the last few months. They dont post, just read. Many feel badly about what IRS is doing to them and their clients and dont want to write about it.As you see my posts are very popular. They contact me for help. I do not charge them.

I do sound arrogant, tough to fight cowards who hid behind fake names and dont give details. If you do the right things why hide. Google Lance Wallach and see that I am everywhere. Why, because I help a lot of people and do the right thing. And honorable people like what I do.I do not mind the abusive tax shelter people and their friends that attack me. I also get attacked at conventions by insurance and shoe salesmen that sell the scams that I expose,so I am used to it. I am also used to getting paid a lot of money for my opinions. I am used to winning every time I am an expert witness. And I am used to playing touch fooball every Sat, snow or rain etc. It is fun to knock down IRS agents on Sat. A lot of them together with attys and accts play. And my team wins almost every week. I am 5 foot eight and 160 lbs and 60 years old and play QB. I am arrogant because of some of the above. I like to fight, win and do the right thing for people. And thanks to Dave Baker for leaving me alone most of the time. I have even spoken FOR FREE at one of his conventions.

I also like the kidding from Ron Snyder and other very smart people on this great message boards, one of the best.

[Chaz]

David Baker said:

VEBAPLAN said:

And click on lippys profile and see that he does not list that he promotes abusive tax shelters, he hides.

This is not helpful.

. . . and possibly defamatory. Something more for the administrator's and moderators' consideration, in my view.

[MARYMM]

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.

I realy like the above one.

By silent members I mean the hundreds of members that have contacted me over the last few months. They dont post, just read. Many feel badly about what IRS is doing to them and their clients and dont want to write about it.As you see my posts are very popular. They contact me for help. I do not charge them.

I do sound arrogant, tough to fight cowards who hid behind fake names and dont give details. If you do the right things why hide. Google Lance Wallach and see that I am everywhere. Why, because I help a lot of people and do the right thing. And honorable people like what I do.I do not mind the abusive tax shelter people and their friends that attack me. I also get attacked at conventions by insurance and shoe salesmen that sell the scams that I expose,so I am used to it. I am also used to getting paid a lot of money for my opinions. I am used to winning every time I am an expert witness. And I am used to playing touch fooball every Sat, snow or rain etc. It is fun to knock down IRS agents on Sat. A lot of them together with attys and accts play. And my team wins almost every week. I am 5 foot eight and 160 lbs and 60 years old and play QB. I am arrogant because of some of the above. I like to fight, win and do the right thing for people. And thanks to Dave Baker for leaving me alone most of the time. I have even spoken FOR FREE at one of his conventions.

I also like the kidding from Ron Snyder and other very smart people on this great message boards, one of the best.

The "silent members" can read a summary and anyone who is interested in more info can click on a link to your full article. This rule is common on other boards and is quite reasonable IMHO. Another board I participate in has a 4 paragraph limit for "reprints" - enough to get the gist of most ideas across.

[GMK]

If any thought is being given to allowing the posting of reprints (I hope not, but..), I suggest limiting them by character count, not paragraphs.

I also suggest that any reprint that has been posted on these boards may not again be posted here, in whole or in part, without the prior approval of a site moderator.

[K2retire]

Some of us are anonymous because our employers require it for liability reasons, not because we are trying to hide anything.

[Dave Baker]

And thanks to Dave Baker for leaving me alone most of the time. I have even spoken FOR FREE at one of his conventions.

Are you confusing me with someone else, Lance? I don't think we've met, and don't sponsor conventions, but I forgot something else once. I think.

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

I spoke about how VEBAs can reduce health costs for states, corps etc. at the nat. retiree convention years ago in Atlantia. I thought that you had something to do with it. Dave Baker had hired me and I thought that was you. Some of the members attended.

I understand a few members cant put their info down. I am writing about the cowards that sell that scams that IRS is after, or defend them in court and other places. Those are the 11 people that I know of that attack my articles, publiched, how many of you people get published. The other three of you have other opinions, fine.

Over a hundred of your members, this year, have emailed and called me for FREE help. They are the silent ones that I am writing about. Sorry I dont spell check this stuff, some people used to attack that, fine.

Will write more later, late for my Sat. football game. Get to knock down IRS agents and they cant do anything about it. Not kidding about that. As I wrote before some of you may want to Google me, and see the help the silent people are getting for free on this great board.

[Dave Baker]

I spoke about how VEBAs can reduce health costs for states, corps etc. at the nat. retiree convention years ago in Atlantia. I thought that you had something to do with it. Dave Baker had hired me and I thought that was you. Some of the members attended.

Egad, an imposter. I am interested, though, in what kind of convention it was. Retirees from a particular corporation? Or an association of some sort?

Dave

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

Some type of large national association, I have a small list of people that had emailed me questions if you want it. We used to do a lot of VEBA stuff for large corps like general motors etc but I got tired of it. We were involved with inventing consumer directed health, ron snyder, aka veba geru, one of your members and one of my attackers, for fun, he is still my friend.

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

From: "W. Palmer Scherf" <[REDACTED]>

To: "Lance Wallach" <LAWALLACH@aol.com>

Subject: Atlanta, GA Conference

Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 12:12:18 -0600

Lance,

Conference was put on by Healthcare Education Associates. I believe they are out of San Diego, CA.

Palmer

One of the silent majority writing to me on about my last post thanks to all 5 of you that were nice enough to help out with this question.

[BG5150]

I'm sure Mr. Scherf appreciates the posting of his e-mail address for all to see.

And, thanks for posting that unrelated-to-the-topic at hand wall of text. Twice.

[GBurns]

Lance

Is there any chance that you can explain or prove these claims?

" We used to do a lot of VEBA stuff for large corps like general motors etc ........"

" We were involved with inventing consumer directed health, ron snyder, aka veba geru, one of your members and one of my attackers,...."

"..he is still my friend."

[Chaz]

Lance

Is there any chance that you can explain or prove these claims?

" We used to do a lot of VEBA stuff for large corps like general motors etc ........"

" We were involved with inventing consumer directed health, ron snyder, aka veba geru, one of your members and one of my attackers,...."

"..he is still my friend."

Jeez, don't encourage the guy.

[GBurns]

Don't forget that truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. Hey, didn't Al Gore invent the internet??

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

search and you will find me on point, ask ron snyder, look in old papers, I will post some things

also see articles about me and reducing health costs VEBAS etc on www.vebahealthcare.com

also see articles about me and health care cost info on vebahealthcare.com go to veba articles page.

also see bottom of home page on vebahealthcare.com

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

Letter to Lance Wallach from Ford Motor benefits representative:

Fri, 11 Jan 2008

Subject: VEBAs

Dear Mr. Wallach,

It as a pleasure speaking with you this afternoon. I appreciate the time you spent

listening and the giving of your advice.

Next week, we, a small splinter union (IAM) within a large Ford Motor facility, at

Cleveland Casting Plant will be negotiating our contract. This site is mostly represented

by the UAW who have already consummated their contract with Ford Motor Company,

and has accepted the VEBA option for their retirees. Their VEBA will be run by the

UAW and whoever they decide to confide in to execute the health care benefit and the

investments with the millions that Ford Motor will hand over to them, and then Ford will

wash their hands of any more health care responsibilities.

Our IAM negotiations start Jan. 14th. The small group of individuals that will be across

the table from the experts representing Ford Motor, are comprised of a few elected

people that are Pattern Maker/Machinist by trade. We have no one of any particular

expertise in finance, healthcare, or investment. We are expected to come to terms with

little, to no knowledge or leverage of the task set before us. We have 1300 people's

lives that will be affected by these negotiations. It is a shame that the larger unions will

not step up to the plate and help with the terms that we are faced with. Ford Motor will

use this to their advantage to squeeze a few more dollars out of our pockets.

Thank you again for your generous contribution of foresight and knowledge to the

concerns facing the American workers in this globalistic battle for the bottom line.

Sincerely,

Mark A. Gwynn

IAM Benefits Rep.

Ford Motor

Cleveland Casting Plant

Sep 18, 2007

Subject: Re: VEBA education

Mr. Wallach,

Thank you so much. I will read this material and if I have any questions I will call. I do

have one very important question that comes to mind - Have you ever seen a VEBA

go bad and if so, how could it have been prevented? I know like some mutual funds

do not last and if this program is based on investment, there is a very real possibility

that the funds could loose significant amounts. Is there a safe guard to this problem?

Dixie Price

U.A.W. Communication Coordinator

270.745.8141

U.A.W. Local 2164

712 Plum Springs Loop

Bowling Green, KY 42101

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

"Mr. Wallach, thanks

so much for taking the

time to talk to me today

about VEBAs. Any

information you can

send me would be

helpful. Hopefully, we

can work together in

the future as interest in

VEBAs increase."

Corman G. Franklin

Office of the

Assistant Secretary

for Policy

U.S. Department

of Labor

[Guest VEBAPLAN]

Reduce Post-Employment Liability

GM Veba

ATT Verizon Retiree Plans

GM's Exchange Offer

Detroit Press UAW

VEBA-UAW Agreement

GM Veba Q&A

Guide to Premium Financing

Captive Insurance & Tax Reduction

Strategies

Courses:

AICPA CPE Self-Study Course

CPA's Guide to Life Insurance Course

Blogs and Videos:

AICPA Interview Video Link

Lance's Blog Link

BlogTalkRadio Link

FlashVideo Link

NPR Link - GM Story

Toolbox for Finance Link

419 & 412 Abusive Plans Blog Link

Finding the Right Experts Blog Link

Metacafe Blog Link

Metacafe How to Fight Penalties Article Link

Metacafe Watchdog, IRS Penalties, Audits

Articles Link

[GBurns]

You have neither answered the questions nor posted anything relevant. Par for the course, as expected.

[BG5150]

Dave, please lock this thread