EIN/SS# for 1099-R / 1096

[austin3515]

Can you use the owner's SS# as the employer's EIN if they do not have an EIN? It’s a small solo 401k plan. The 1099 is for the owner and is being issued by the owner. There is no withholding or anything.

[rcline46]

The IRS requires the sponsor of a qualified plan to have an EIN separate form their SSN. IF you were filing an EZ for this person, then you would be required to get an EIN. I think you need an EIN.

Also, how does one issue a 1099 to oneself? The plan/trust made the payment and its EIN goes on the 1099.

Thats my two cents.

[austin3515]

No EZ is being filed, less than $250K of plan assets.

You nver "need" a separate EIN for the trust. You can always run reporting on the employer's EIN.

[Bill Presson]

Can you use the owner's SS# as the employer's EIN if they do not have an EIN? It's a small solo 401k plan. The 1099 is for the owner and is being issued by the owner. There is no withholding or anything.

I'm almost positive that the owner is required to get an EIN for the plan, whether they are producing 1099's or not. But I haven't been able to put my hands on the backup for that. I'll keep looking today as I have time.

[austin3515]

If that's a requirement than 85% of my plans have a problem. If you're at John Hancock, what need could there be for a plan EIN? The only reason for a plan EIN is if you want to preserve your monthly deposit status for remitting withholding (i.e., if the employer EIN requires semi-weekly deposits).

[mbozek]

Can you use the owner's SS# as the employer's EIN if they do not have an EIN? It’s a small solo 401k plan. The 1099 is for the owner and is being issued by the owner. There is no withholding or anything.

Using owner's SSN for plan/trust reporting is not allowed b/c plan/trust is separate tax entity. Employer must have ein for reporting, eg. filing, 5500EZ. See SS-4 form and instructions to request EIN for plan/trust by fax.

Edit:

more than one EIN maybe required. Plan sponsor who is self employed must obtain employer EIN to file 5500 EZ. A separate EIN needs to be obtained to report distributions from the trust. See 5500 EZ instructions for line 2b which state that SSN can not be used.

[mbozek]

If that's a requirement than 85% of my plans have a problem. If you're at John Hancock, what need could there be for a plan EIN? The only reason for a plan EIN is if you want to preserve your monthly deposit status for remitting withholding (i.e., if the employer EIN requires semi-weekly deposits).

Where have you been hiding? Years ago when solo Qual plans exempt from ERISA filed the schedule P to start the S/l running for plan violations, the owners used their own SSN until IRS stopped the practice around1997-98. I remember schwab sending out letter informing owners to get tax ID # for plan.

[Bill Presson]

If that's a requirement than 85% of my plans have a problem. If you're at John Hancock, what need could there be for a plan EIN? The only reason for a plan EIN is if you want to preserve your monthly deposit status for remitting withholding (i.e., if the employer EIN requires semi-weekly deposits).

IF you have an employer EIN (not ss#) and you are at John Hancock, I don't think there is a requirement to get a plan/trust EIN.

But that's not what you asked.

[austin3515]

Where have I been hiding? Ouch... I'm not suggesting using a SS# for any sort of a 5500, EZ or otherwise. My qiestopm was only about 1099 reporting.

Actually, FT Williams did respond and said that somewhre in the instrucitons it does mention that you can use a SS# in place of an EIN for a Schedule C entity. That being said, I have already begun the process of getting an EIN because I dodn't like the idea of both the payer and the payee having the same id.

Just to make sure I undertand what everyone has been saying though: Schedule C business with a solo 401k that has less than $250K in assets and has never had any distributions. Is there a REQUIREMENT that either the plan or the employer have an EIN?

[mbozek]

Where have I been hiding? Ouch... I'm not suggesting using a SS# for any sort of a 5500, EZ or otherwise. My qiestopm was only about 1099 reporting.

Actually, FT Williams did respond and said that somewhre in the instrucitons it does mention that you can use a SS# in place of an EIN for a Schedule C entity. That being said, I have already begun the process of getting an EIN because I dodn't like the idea of both the payer and the payee having the same id.

Just to make sure I undertand what everyone has been saying though: Schedule C business with a solo 401k that has less than $250K in assets and has never had any distributions. Is there a REQUIREMENT that either the plan or the employer have an EIN?

An EIN will only be required if tax reporting is required, such as for a distribution.

I would like to know what IRS instructions say that a SS# can be used in place of an EIN. All IRS instructions say its not allowed, e.g., SS-4

[Bird]

The IRS requires the sponsor of a qualified plan to have an EIN separate form their SSN. IF you were filing an EZ for this person, then you would be required to get an EIN. I think you need an EIN.

This is correct, the sponsor/sole proprietor "must" have a separate EIN if it sponsors a QP. From footnote #1 of the short instructions with Form SS-4:

For example, a sole proprietorship or self-employed farmer who establishes a qualified retirement plan, or is required to file excise, employment, alcohol, tobacco, or firearms returns, must have an EIN.

I think you can use the sponsor EIN for plan reporting, but generally speaking, I would avoid that. You have to comply with deposit timing based on the sponsor's payroll, and coordinate the 945 and 941 and it's messy. I would definitely get a separate EIN for the plan if I had any reporting to do.

I think you can indeed skip it (for the plan) if you have a custodian such as John Hancock doing the reporting and withholding.

No way would I report using a SSN.

[Bird]

P.S. It's Ft. William, not Ft. Williams. Pet peeve...(one of many).

[austin3515]

For example, a sole proprietorship or self-employed farmer who establishes a qualified retirement plan, or is required to file excise, employment, alcohol, tobacco, or firearms returns, must have an EIN.

Interesting - but it seems to be a moot point if there is not a single use for it?

[austin3515]

http://www.irs.gov/instructions/i1099gi/ar02.html#d0e1347

The site from Ft. William (no s on the end . Says the only reason you would need an EIN is if you sponsored a Keogh plan. I thought Keogh plan's didn't even exist anymore...

[K2retire]

Technically, I think that Keogh plans are not considered to be a separate type of plan anymore. But many old timers, still use that term as a shortcut to describe the exact type of plan in the OP.

[mbozek]

Technically, I think that Keogh plans are not considered to be a separate type of plan anymore. But many old timers, still use that term as a shortcut to describe the exact type of plan in the OP.

Several years ago the IRS stopped using the term keogh plan to claim the deduction for retirement plans for self employed persons on the 1040 and now refers to self employed SEPS, Simples and qualified plans on line 28. Keogh plans still live on in IRS regs 1.401(e)-1 to 6 most of which are obsolete.

[mbozek]

For example, a sole proprietorship or self-employed farmer who establishes a qualified retirement plan, or is required to file excise, employment, alcohol, tobacco, or firearms returns, must have an EIN.

Interesting - but it seems to be a moot point if there is not a single use for it?

The only time there is a use for the EIN is when a report must be filed such as a 5500EZ or a 1099R or if a 5300 is requested. A few years ago it became public that the IRS routinely inactivated/cancelled EINs when there had been no reporting activity using the EIN after a number of years until it was pointed out that EINs were required for many types of entities even if no reporting was required. I know that some vendors who updated prototype plans for EGTRRA and Heroes Act required that the plan sponsor submit its EIN in order to have the provider process the request and issue the revised plan.

What doest seem to have been answered in this discussion is whose EIN is required to report a distribution from the solo qualified plan: the employer's or the trust that pays the benefit?

Does the trust have to have its own EIN to report a one time plan distribution on the 1099?

[Bird]

What doest seem to have been answered in this discussion is whose EIN is required to report a distribution from the solo qualified plan: the employer's or the trust that pays the benefit?

Does the trust have to have its own EIN to report a one time plan distribution on the 1099?

For what it's worth, I checked through an old file and found that IRS Announcement 84-40 provides the authority to submit plan withholding along with wage withholding. 1099s etc. must follow through with the use of the same (employer) ID number, so that's the indirect authority to use the employer ID number for plan reporting. Whether that's been superseded by something else, I don't know. I would get a separate ID number anyway for the reasons mentioned before.