david rigby

Not sure I understand your question. Is it possible that you have some typos in your posted facts? We have not reached 11/30/2002, so no one knows what that balance will be. How do you know there are losses at 11/30/2002? Probably, the timing of any distribution is based on the terms of the plan. In a DC plan, seems pretty unlikely that the plan will "make up for the losses".

Right. If you want to give them vesting, the best way to do so is amend your plan.

The instructions to Form 5330 do not appear to have any exception for small amounts (caution, I scanned the instructions quickly). http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i5330.pdf The poriton of the instructions that deals with IRC 4975 contains a cross-reference to an IRS regulation under section 4941, http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...=2001&TYPE=TEXT A quick scan of this reg does not reveal any small amount exception either. It is my guess that, especially with regard to PT issues, the IRS wants to know of their existence as much as it wants the excise tax. The safe course of action is probably to file it.

Or try Thomas (P.L. 107-16) http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR01836:|TOM:/bss/d107query.html|

Hold on here. In your first post, you state "a plan". In your most recent post, you state "each plan". Is it a single plan, or many? The answer to that question is not affected by how the divisions have filed 5500s in the past. It must be answered before concern for your original question. If a single plan, then file only one. If multiple plans, the addition of a new division will either create a new plan (hence a new effective date) or it will be included in one of the existing plans (in which case, the new division does not file anything).

Perhaps I'm missing something, but from the facts stated by LVanSteeter, there is only one plan. If that is the case, then there should be only one 5500. However, also stated is that assets are "kept separate". So maybe there is more than one plan. Define the basics first. The ball is back to you. Maverick has a different scenario that implies different divisions have different plans; thus, multiple 5500s.

Oh please tell me these were attorneys!

A better first question is how many 5500 filings there should be. - On what basis is the current process of filing multiple forms? - What kind of plan is this? - What is the actual relationship of the "divisions", to each other? to any other entity (such as a corporation)? - Any collective bargaining agreements involved?

This link still works. Is it of any value to you? http://www.moodys.com/moodys/cust/displayS...501300000001844

Update on NC: There is proposed legislation to bring the NC tax code in conformity with the US tax code. However, I was informed today by one of the sponsors that passage of that bill does not appear likely.

Form 5308 http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5308.pdf

In determining the value of assets for GAS27 purposes, is there any (reasonably) definitive statement whether accrued contributions should be excluded? I have looked in the EA meeting outlines back to 1998. Found no discussion. Also, I cannot find any explict comment in GAS27 itself. Points to consider (that I don't wish to overlook): 1. In what year does the plan sponsor record the accrued contribution? 2. Does the auditor have an opinion? 3. In order to avoid "apples and oranges", the contribution(s) in the NPO "roll-forward" should be consistent with whether included in the assets. Any thoughts?

I am not aware of a specific limit. IMO, six is not too many IF you reasonably expect that all six could be competitive and be utilized. My experience is to use two, and to include a "catch-all" statement something like "if another insurer is chosen, you will be notified."

Blinky's comment about "cutback" and "accrued" is correct but might need some clarification here. Pension law states that no retirement benefit accrued (already earned) can be cutback, but that future benefits (that is, the amount that would be earned during future years) can be reduced, or even eliminated. For example, a plan can be frozen, not changing the amount of the accrued benefit but making all future accruals zero. In order to be of furthere assistance, it would help if you could describe in greater detail the nature of your benefit, both old and new. Also, what type of plan are we discussing: defined benefit? What are the early retirement provisions, if any?

Try http://www.americanbenefitscouncil.org/ (Their list is usually a little out of date.)

As said so many times before, even though you are trying to be creative with the rules, what does the plan say? BTW, I don't like your argument, but I'll leave that for the many minds better than mine. BTW2, I don't see a need to terminate the plan. Since the participant is over NRA, the plan could permit distribution. Am I missing something?

5500 forms and instructions http://www.dol.gov/pwba/pubs/forms/formmain.htm

American Benefits Council, although their chart may not be current. http://www.americanbenefitscouncil.org/

The text of IRC section 72(m)(10) is: "(10)Determination of investment in the contract in the case of qualified domestic relations orders Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary, in the case of a distribution or payment made to an alternate payee who is the spouse or former spouse of the participant pursuant to a qualified domestic relations order (as defined in section 414(p)), the investment in the contract as of the date prescribed in such regulations shall be allocated on a pro rata basis between the present value of such distribution or payment and the present value of all other benefits payable with respect to the participant to which such order relates." Don't know if the IRS has issued any regs (proposed or otherwise) on this section.

Why do you need determination letter for termination? Can the other assets of the participants (doc and wife) be distributed? That is not the same as a plan termination.

That's a pretty good question. Just my non-lawyer opinion, but it might be hasty to assume a pro-rata split. For example, suppose all the after-tax money was contributed before the marriage, it might not be appropriate to do any split. If possible, the participant might want to consider having the QDRO modified to remove any ambiguity.

What was the song by the Mamas and Papas: "Monday, Monday, can't trust that day."

What do you mean "... came in at the beginning of the 2002 year" ? Was that a deduction from a paycheck dated in 2001?

The sponsor needs legal advice that can consolidate bankruptcy and qualified plan issues.

Form 5500 instructions can be found here. http://www.dol.gov/pwba/pubs/forms/formmain.htm