Bob the Swimmer

A client was audited in 2010 time frame with a RIF and we took the position that only those employer-initiated terminees were fully vested and IRS agreed. That may be an outlier, but it never hurts to mention. The other issue was for me not to connect or attribute 3 plan years for several RIFs as there was an episodic but continuous

Not to mention the interest (or unrealized appreciation) advantage the HCE has by having the money in his account much earlier than the other NHCEs.

Great thoughts-agreed, depends on the employer. In the mid-90s we had a foreign parent (who almost never understands this stuff)--and for about $5k in QNECs we helped them to pass the test---the only issue is if the lowest pay grades are paying attention, they might say "Where are these pennies from heaven coming from and why ?" But no one ever complains.

All great suggestions made previously. Many years ago, we would contribute a per diem discretionary contribution, say $50 each,to the lowest or lowest several pay grades at a given company and helped several companies work out of this problem. A typical lowest pay grade might be the custodial staff, the receptionists, and entry-level assistants.

All great suggestions made previously. Many years ago, we would contribute a per diem discretionary contribution, say $50 each,to the lowest or lowest several pay grades at a given company and helped several companies work out of this problem. A typical lowest pay grade might be the custodial staff, the receptionists, and entry-level assistants.

Good research by David Rigby---there also used to be a loose leaf service by CCH called Capital Changes Reporter that would have that information formally listed --I'm probably showing my age.

You might want to look at the new tax law section on deferrals---there is a provision that allows deferrals again for limited purposes for stock plans but I believe it has to be an all-employee stock option plan which is becoming rarer today.

My thoughts are this may be a multiple-employer plan--and as such, they may be creating more problems than it is worth for filing separately. May be best for your company to break off formally and establish their own plan if that is what they want to do---various considerations need to be weighed from a cost-benefit side. But if the main entity does not want to file a 5500 for the whole group, that is pretty serious non-compliance. You may be waiting a while for a DOL answer unless you know someone there.

Very interesting thread and I credit both sides for their careful thoughts conveyed. I have a single person DB plan and it is a great thing for my advanced age. Not sure whether starting a CB at 53 would have produced a higher result today 13 years later than my current accrued benefit, but it's an interesting thought, and maybe not because we have never been overly-aggressive, my actuary and I. BTW, I've never in 42 years of consulting had real trouble either communicating a DB or a CB to a single-person owner--client effectively.

I agree with figure 8 and Larry Starr---it's a cost-benefit and risk analysis----in a 42-year career I've even had the IRS accidentally send us a client's file by mistake---when we sent it back, they accelerated the approval to two weeks.

BPAS is one of several who has an auto-rollover service you may want to utilize after trying to find these people as missing participants---see below The BPAS Advantage BPAS AutoRollovers is a no-hassle IRA for former participants who are subject to a mandatory distribution. A no-cost, streamlined account set-up process saves time and money. Plus the entire distribution process is fully automated for plans on the BPAS platform.

When I worked in DC, we'd send a staffer to DOL to get copies of a prior filing--which you could do at their offices---but since the electronic filing of exemption certificates, it's much easier now if she filed electronically within the last 4-5 years.

My recollection from about a decade ago is that many of TIAA's contracts have 10-year withdrawal provisions. This means that you cannot get your money any quicker than the time period in the extensive contract provides. We have seen that TIAA is not willing to negotiate any shorter W/D periods for small employers, but occasionally has done it for larger employers (anecdotally). [ Not to be cynical, but ever since my experience with their contracts, I always wondered what their tag line "For the greater good" really meant.]

Most documents allow you to write in your own formula but it will need to pass testing and that can be problematic if a lot of your longer-service ee's are HCEs

hi JEANIE--- I'm sorry for your loss also---this is par for the course with Vanguard and many others---we've been through this twice with V. with deaths this past year-----stay the course as you are and document, document, document everything. I agree with what's been said above, freezing does not mean insulating a DC account from losses---your first move if you want them to do so, is to sell everything (if that is the right investment decision for you). But first check with your estate attorney to see if that's what you want to do at this time.

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We've used the DOL calculator in a number of VCP filings. The difficulty in not using it comes when several dozen mutual funds may be involved and it is difficult to calculate an accurate rate of return over time (especially with investment switches from fund to fund). But if you have a loss, you may want to try calculate the return not using the DOL calculator.

Agree that this appears to be for, for example, the doctor who works for several different 403(b)-providing entities like two different medical centers. It is an important change that we have been teaching the old rule for years. Good on Bob Toth and Evan Giller and you Scarabrad for pointing this out (both my kids are doctors).

Many plans have language as to the first to occur, either CIC or voluntary term of employment not for cause (or even death or disability) Why wouldn't you have that here ?

I agree with Belgarath and this is a good reason to add a "bad boy" clause to a Non-Qualified Plan. It has happened to 3 of our clients over the past 40 years.

I would call this insignificant under these facts, one person out of 350, especially if the account balance is small because it is only for a few years.

Luke makes a good point but depending on the severity of the error and the fact that a lot of time has passed since 2015 and the fact that every balance was affected, SCP may not be available and you may have to go VCP.

We typically have a matrix of plan events--such as disability or death or involuntary term without cause if they apply in our AI plan documents. This could all also be solved by a provision covering that and not leaving it to the Board's discretion. Just a thought

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As a CPA and lawyer with a Big Four for over 20 years in DC, I do not recognize this as a significant problem. Don't know that any of the myriad independence rules in the Code or ERISA or SEC change this. Remember that actuaries have different standards which I am well aware of. Typically, accounting firms often refer these issues to their consulting units to correct, if they have such consulting units. I'd be interested what anyone else feels might impair independence in this regard.