Docusign for Plan documents

[austin3515]

Is anyone using DocuSign to facilitate the signing of plan documents? Do you like it, did you try it and hate it, let me know!

 

[Peter Gulia]

I’m aware of at least one big recordkeeper that uses an electronic-signature regime for adoption agreements, other plan documents, and service agreements.

 

And some of my clients that are investment advisers use it for investment-advisory agreements.

 

I like electronic signatures because:

 

• A signer can be anywhere (unless it’s so remote it lacks an Internet connection).

 

• A recipient gets much more confidence that the signature was made by the person named.

 

• Knowing that the computer systems make and keep detailed time records of what was done when reduces a temptation to make a false statement about when the document was signed.

 

• There is no incremental expense for delivery of the signed documents.

 

• Some systems facilitate a courtesy delivery to a lawyer or other third person as the signer requests.

 

To advise clients, I’ve reviewed several providers’ electronic-signature services.  All I’ve seen are good.  One might choose a service provider based on available integrations with other software one uses.

 

I had one client who needed to get a few hundred signatures on new agreements in one month.  Not only did she succeed, the set-up of the software handled almost all the work.  The software’s reminders and nudges helped get signatures (without telephone calls), even from signers on vacation far away.

 

[MoJo]

We use Docusign for all "new business" plan document, and most amendments.  We are currently extending that use to "all" documents for all of our platforms/locations this year.  We like it - but more importantly OUR CLIENTS LOVE IT.  No more fumbling through a printed document (from a pdf we send them) signing, scanning, sending back and invariably having missed a key signature line.

What we like about it is:

1) it won't let the document be returned until COMPLETELY signed

2) It allows us to to send the documents to more than one person simultaneously - and then get back the signed documents signed by multiple parties

3) It helps us track where the documents are in the signing process

4) It creates a record of WHEN the documents are signed....

[BG5150]

But how can you back date amendments?  ;)

[RatherBeGolfing]

2 minutes ago, BG5150 said:

But how can you back date amendments?  ;)

where there's a will there's a way...

[ESOP Guy]

4 minutes ago, BG5150 said:

But how can you back date amendments?  ;)

I guess you will just have to have the client sign a bunch of blank amendments and fill in the contents later.  The first TPA firm I worked for in the early '90s he did a version of this all the time.  People would come to him late in December wanting to set up a plan for a tax deduction as they realize they had made good money.  Their CPA had told them the plan had to be in place by 12/31.  There were time when they would call him on 12/30 or 12/31.  He would fax them the signature page of the prototype plan and tell them to sign and date it as soon as they got it.  He would meet them some in in January to complete the rest of the prototype plan provisions. 

As RatherBeGolfing says were there is a will....

[austin3515]

How about this - we send a document for signature and the client signs as Employer, but says "hey I just noticed that the wrong Trustee is listed" and so now I need to resend the documents. But the one already signed is obsolete. Can I delete something that was already signed or is it memorialized for ever and ever?

[Peter Gulia]

In my experience, another advantage of a carefully automated plan-documents system is that it facilitates reviews to increase the likelihood that a document will be complete and accurate before the signer signs.

But if there is a revision, why should the plan's sponsor desire to delete a record of what previously was done.

My clients' experiences are that their older signers (even many in their 80s or 90s) are favorably impressed, and younger signers simply assume electronic is how business is done.

[TPAJake]

Our sister company uses it for their Plan Documents & they absolutely love it.  I'm not sure how to go about deleting a document that is already signed, but they do get revised document signatures all the time in those scenarios.  There must be a way to nullify the obsolete document.

[austin3515]

Quote

But if there is a revision, why should the plan's sponsor desire to delete a record of what previously was done.

I try not to keep a record of my stupid mistakes for starters...  Typos, etc.

[MoJo]

52 minutes ago, austin3515 said:

How about this - we send a document for signature and the client signs as Employer, but says "hey I just noticed that the wrong Trustee is listed" and so now I need to resend the documents. But the one already signed is obsolete. Can I delete something that was already signed or is it memorialized for ever and ever?

We just amend the plan on a prospective basis.  And by the way, "naming" a trustee is ineffective if the trustee so named doesn't sign it....

[austin3515]

I mean, I'm setting up an amendment and restatement today for a change effective 9/1/17.  And I have a typo in the trustees name, but the other trustees have already signed.  Your telling me your preference would not be to just delete the thing and start over with the correct spelling?

[MoJo]

1 hour ago, BG5150 said:

But how can you back date amendments?  ;)

Ummm.   Without divulging lawyerly secrets, I know of an attorney who every year buys a ream of two of paper from that year, and maintains a pristine condition Selectric typewriter - all I'm sure for nostagia and sentimental reasons.  When asked about the IRS actually having a lab that can test the age of "ink" on paper (purely hypothetical inquiry, of course), he responded with "scanning" and original destruction is our friend....

Really not sure what he was talking about, but I'm pretty sure he's never hear the term "metadata" and that could be a problem.

[MoJo]

32 minutes ago, austin3515 said:

I try not to keep a record of my stupid mistakes for starters...  Typos, etc.

Surely you have no such problems, austin...

[austin3515]

I make intelligent mistakes very infrequently - but stupid mistakes I make once a day...

[ESOP Guy]

1 hour ago, MoJo said:

Ummm.   Without divulging lawyerly secrets, I know of an attorney who every year buys a ream of two of paper from that year, and maintains a pristine condition Selectric typewriter - all I'm sure for nostagia and sentimental reasons.  When asked about the IRS actually having a lab that can test the age of "ink" on paper (purely hypothetical inquiry, of course), he responded with "scanning" and original destruction is our friend....

Really not sure what he was talking about, but I'm pretty sure he's never hear the term "metadata" and that could be a problem.

Getting completely off topic now.  But my first job out of college was working for the IRS.  I co-worker caught a guy with fake travel and entertaining deductions one time.  What did the guy in was when my co-worker noticed all the "receipts" from the primary restaurant he took clients to eat at were in perfect sequential order.  The guy finally admitted that he got a receipt book (it was the '80s so most tabs were still hand written on a paper form) from the restaurant.  He was just using different pens and had different family members list out the order and he had the right costs.  He thought of everything but the fact they were numbered. 

It doesn't matter when doing this kind of stuff you can think of 100s of things to get correct but it only take missing one to get caught.  The odds aren't in your favor. 

[RatherBeGolfing]

56 minutes ago, ESOP Guy said:

Getting completely off topic now.  But my first job out of college was working for the IRS.  I co-worker caught a guy with fake travel and entertaining deductions one time.  What did the guy in was when my co-worker noticed all the "receipts" from the primary restaurant he took clients to eat at were in perfect sequential order.  The guy finally admitted that he got a receipt book (it was the '80s so most tabs were still hand written on a paper form) from the restaurant.  He was just using different pens and had different family members list out the order and he had the right costs.  He thought of everything but the fact they were numbered. 

It doesn't matter when doing this kind of stuff you can think of 100s of things to get correct but it only take missing one to get caught.  The odds aren't in your favor. 

I have heard tales of ink testing and carbon dating paper to catch back dating, but I don't know how much truth there is to that.   I had a conversation with someone at a conference once who jokingly said that it might be a good idea to save and label paper each year so that you would have the correct paper for the whatever document you may need in the future...

[Belgarath]

4 hours ago, ESOP Guy said:

As RatherBeGolfing says were there is a will....

I thought that mostly applied to 25 year old trophy wives (or husbands - let's have equality here) marrying wealthy 80+ year old spouses.

Kidding aside, I like much of what I'm hearing about this docusign stuff. How expensive is it, and what kind of a learning curve (for someone who isn't all that swift on computer applications...)

Thanks.

[MoJo]

1 minute ago, Belgarath said:

Kidding aside, I like much of what I'm hearing about this docusign stuff. How expensive is it, and what kind of a learning curve (for someone who isn't all that swift on computer applications...)

Thanks.

I can't speak to the cost, but from a set-up, user perspective, it's pretty darn easy.  You upload a pdf of your document, highlight (create a field) everywhere a signature is needed (initials allowed as well), make them "mandatory" or not, add email addresses as to where it goes, and you're pretty much good to go.  It also has the capabilities of having different people sign in different place - and what is returned is a fully signed document - even though they all signed it separately from the comfort of wherever they are.

I'm told it's mobile device friendly, but I haven't tried that out.

[Peter Gulia]

DocuSign, RightSignature, and other providers are glad to take you through a demo of the software.

If you use a CRM software, one might ask that provider which of the e-signature software providers built integrations for your CRM software.

If you use CCH/Wolters Kluwer, Citrix, or another file-sharing host, one might ask that provider which of the e-signature software providers build integrations for your file-sharing software.