is a voluntary after-tax contribution subaccount "pre-tax"?

[carelessostrich]

plan document specifies subaccounts that contains pre-tax earnings or contributions, can be in-plan converted by eligible rollover distributions, into designated roth subaccounts. 

voluntary after-tax contributions go into a separate subaccount, than elective deferrals and employer contributions. Does a subaccount still count as pre-tax, if it does not actually contain any pre-tax earning or contributions, but otherwise can potentially contain pre-tax earnings? It is clearly not a designated roth subaccount.

inservice distributions otherwise not permitted.

[Mike Preston]

No. What are you trying to accomplish?

[carelessostrich]

well, voluntary after-tax contributions then in-plan roth conversion would allow the mega backdoor roth, correct?

Part that is confusing me is that the voluntary contributions subaccount sometimes contains pre-tax earnings and sometimes it doesn't (it seems voluntary pre-tax contributions ended in 1987). For exampled if the voluntary after-tax contributions earned some interest.

So we are debating if being pre-tax is a property of the subaccount and not the contents. For example it seems like the IRS refers to Traditional IRA rollover into pre-tax subaccounts of qualified plans. but that Traditional IRA might include some (or entirely) nondeductible after-tax contributions.

[Mike Preston]

Gotta keep track of pre and post tax monies, subaccount label is irrelevant.

[spiritrider]

23 hours ago, carelessostrich said:

For example it seems like the IRS refers to Traditional IRA rollover into pre-tax subaccounts of qualified plans. but that Traditional IRA might include some (or entirely) nondeductible after-tax contributions.

However, only the pre-tax assets can be rolled over from a traditional IRA to a qualified plan pre-tax account. The prohibition against the rollover of non-deductible basis is intended to preserve the integrity of the qualified plan pre-tax account. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

[carelessostrich]

2 hours ago, spiritrider said:

However, only the pre-tax assets can be rolled over from a traditional IRA to a qualified plan pre-tax account. The prohibition against the rollover of non-deductible basis is intended to preserve the integrity of the qualified plan pre-tax account. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Yes, good point. I had thought this was usually only a plan restriction. 

I have no point to make, but I am trying to understand this plan's rules around in-plan roth conversions. (BTW I have an answer, but no explanation, from the plan sponsor - so this is for my education) 

1. The plan document allows conversion from subaccounts that contain pre-tax. But some subaccounts contain a mix. A strict interpretation: subaccount does not contain pre-tax until it earns $0.01 pre-tax earnings, then suddenly becomes eligible for conversion. Or: all subaccounts (except a designated roth account) categorize earnings as pre-tax, so all subaccounts allow conversion

2. Suppose a plan allows in-service distribution (out of plan) above retirement age. Then would that age restriction then apply to in-plan roth conversion as well, or only "actual" distributions? The IRS says they generally treat in-plan roth conversion as a distribution and transfer (with certain explicit differences). So it seems to me like in-plan roth conversion would then be restricted to above retirement age also.

Thank you both!

[C. B. Zeller]

On 5/24/2020 at 3:34 AM, carelessostrich said:

2. Suppose a plan allows in-service distribution (out of plan) above retirement age. Then would that age restriction then apply to in-plan roth conversion as well, or only "actual" distributions? The IRS says they generally treat in-plan roth conversion as a distribution and transfer (with certain explicit differences). So it seems to me like in-plan roth conversion would then be restricted to above retirement age also.

There was a law a while back that explicitly permits in-plan Roth conversions of amounts which would otherwise not be distributable. The converted account remains subject to whatever withdrawal restrictions applied before the conversion. See Notice 2013-74. This is optional of course; plans are free to restrict in-plan Roth conversions to amounts that would be otherwise eligible for a distribution.