Eaglepi Posted November 14, 2023 Posted November 14, 2023 When I make a withdrawal from a 401K they add the federal tax for the tax % I fall into. The thing I am having a problem understanding is, If they are making me pay federal taxes on my withdrawal and adding the taxes to my total withdrawal which becomes taxable income. Then at tax time I am taxed at my total income with includes the taxes they withheld and added to my total withdrawal . How is that not double taxing me for the amount they added to my 401K withdrawal for taxes? seems I am sending the Federal Gov. the taxed for the income % rate of the total withdrawal and then IRS looks at total and I am taxed again??? I realize they are withholding and sending that to the IRS but it is still being added to my total imncome which is used to determine my taxable income for the year...
Popular Post Belgarath Posted November 14, 2023 Popular Post Posted November 14, 2023 Sounds like you are confusing withholding with taxation. There are several different distribution scenarios, but consider the following, which is the most common situation. Taxable distributions from a 401(k), if they are "eligible rollover distributions," have MANDATORY 20% federal income tax withholding. Withholding just means it is sent to the IRS, and when you file your income tax return, this withholding is applied to the income tax owed. This means that you will either owe the IRS less in a tax payment, or receive a larger refund. For sake of simplicity, assume you have taxable income, after all deductions, credits, etc., of 100,000, which INCLUDES your 401(k) withdrawal of 20,000. 20% mandatory withholding of 4,000 was sent to the IRS. Further assume that we ignore progressive income tax brackets, and your federal tax bracket for all income is 28%. Finally, assume you had 10,000 in federal income tax withholding on your other taxable income. So, total federal income tax owed is 28,000. You have had 14,000 already withheld, so you owe the IRS 14,000. If you had NOT had the 20% withholding on the 20,000 401(K) distribution, you would owe the IRS 18,000. Conversely, let's say you had 28,000 withheld from your taxable income not counting the 4,000 withholding on the 401(k) distribution, so you have had a total of 32,000 withheld in federal income tax. Since you have had a total of 32,000 withheld, you now get a tax refund of 4,000. This is a gross oversimplification to help illustrate the point. You are not having double taxation on the 401k) withdrawal. duckthing, Mr Bagwell, ERISAGirl and 3 others 6
Lou S. Posted November 14, 2023 Posted November 14, 2023 Yes you are taxed on the gross distribution including the amount you add to cover that year's taxes which are then withheld, not unlike someone increasing their withholding on their W-2 wages. One reason you might do this is to avoid penalties for being under withheld when you file your 1040. Another option might be to elect the minimum required withholding from your qualified plan distribution and pay estimated quarterly tax payments or increase withholding on other sources of income (assuming you have the funds available to do that). Which option is right for you depends on a lot of individual factors we can't address here. You might wish to discuss your specific tax situation with your CPA. Belgarath has a pretty good overview above that lays out some of the basics.
justanotheradmin Posted November 14, 2023 Posted November 14, 2023 4 hours ago, Eaglepi said: When I make a withdrawal from a 401K they add the federal tax for the tax % I fall into This sentence is incorrect. The plan doesn't know what tax rate you fall into, or any of the participants fall into. As others mention, the withheld amount toward federal taxes is defaulted as 20%. If your personal taxes end working out more than that, you will owe. If your personal tax situation ends up being less than that, you will be given a refund after you file your personal return. I'm a stranger on the internet. Nothing I write is tax or legal advice. I'd like a witty saying here, but I don't have any. When in doubt, what does the plan document say?
Lou S. Posted November 14, 2023 Posted November 14, 2023 Yes but if someone wants a "Net $10K" withdrawal they will need to gross it up for the 20% taxes withheld and take $12.5K gross, ignoring any potential state withholding. This assumes the distribution is eligible for rollover with the required 20% withholding and they're not electing more than 20% because they might be in a higher tax bracket.
rocknrolls2 Posted November 15, 2023 Posted November 15, 2023 One thing that people seem to be forgetting is that if this is a hardship withdrawal, then the 20% mandatory federal tax withholding does not apply since a hardship withdrawal is not an eligible rollover distribution. In that case, optional 10% withholding would apply.
Peter Gulia Posted November 15, 2023 Posted November 15, 2023 Also, a distribution’s gross-up need not be restricted to amounts withheld toward taxes but might, even for a hardship distribution, include someone’s reckoning of “amounts necessary [for the distributee] to pay any federal, state, or local income taxes or penalties reasonably anticipated to result from the distribution[.]” 26 C.F.R. § 1.401(k)-1(d)(3)(iii)(A). I’ve seen a plan’s administrator approve a hardship distribution for 200% of the need amount. For some New York City residents (with marginal income tax rates summing more than 50%), that’s still not enough to meet the taxes that result from a too-early distribution. A plan’s administrator and its service provider might assume they don’t know everything about the distributee’s and one’s spouse’s circumstances, and so approve a gross-up request within a plausible range. Peter Gulia PC Fiduciary Guidance Counsel Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 215-732-1552 Peter@FiduciaryGuidanceCounsel.com
Luke Bailey Posted November 15, 2023 Posted November 15, 2023 Eaglepi, say you work for a company. For a week's work, they owe you $1,000 and they run that through payroll. Withhold federal income and FICA, so you actually receive in cash, say, $700 and change. But the full $1,000 goes on your W-2. It's the same thing with 401(k). And just as with wages, you credit whatever they withheld against the calculated tax on your 1040 when you file. Bri and Peter Gulia 1 1 Luke Bailey Senior Counsel Clark Hill PLC 214-651-4572 (O) | LBailey@clarkhill.com 2600 Dallas Parkway Suite 600 Frisco, TX 75034
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