update to SS-4 TIN website - SSN required?

Has anyone tried using the IRS website to request a trust identification number recently? 

What should be listed for line 7a, and 7b?

I would think the "Name of responsible party" would be the Plan Sponsor as the trust grantor, and then the EIN of the Plan Sponsor would be used, but the instructions say to use EIN only if the Name of the responsible party is a government entity. 

The website will not accept an EIN, and that screen cannot be by passed?

Should the instructions for listing a responsible person for the business entity (principal officer, etc) be followed instead? but we aren't applying for an EIN for the business, its for the trust. 

what have folks been doing? 

Name of responsible party is Trustee.  Use Trustee's SSN.

If you are applying for an EIN for a trust so you can use it for reporting purposes, you should be using the instructions for creating a pension plan.  You only need to complete lines 1,3,4a-5b, 9a, 10 and 18.

I think you will see that 7a and 7b have been updated and provide a choice now. One of our staff members spent a lot of time on the phone with the IRS last week.

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, justanotheradmin said:

Has anyone tried using the IRS website to request a trust identification number recently? 

What should be listed for line 7a, and 7b?

I would think the "Name of responsible party" would be the Plan Sponsor as the trust grantor, and then the EIN of the Plan Sponsor would be used, but the instructions say to use EIN only if the Name of the responsible party is a government entity. 

The website will not accept an EIN, and that screen cannot be by passed? 

Should the instructions for listing a responsible person for the business entity (principal officer, etc) be followed instead? but we aren't applying for an EIN for the business, its for the trust. 

what have folks been doing? 

 

Replying to the OP to bump up this thread as this is still an issue. The OP is talking about the IRS' online EIN application, and not the paper Form SS-4.

In the past (and at least through 2016), when we’ve assisted clients with obtaining an EIN via the IRS’ online process, we’ve been able to specify the employer’s company name as the “responsible party” and enter the employer’s EIN.

Now, however, the IRS’ online EIN application requires a specific individual’s first and last name and SSN to be specified as the “responsible party” despite the fact that this is not how Form SS-4 is completed when one is requesting an EIN for an employer plan, and despite the fact that the paper Form SS-4 permits an EIN to be entered for the responsible party.

In other words, when using the IRS' online EIN application there is no longer any ability whatsoever to specify a company's name and EIN instead of an individual's name and SSN as the responsible party.

(Note that one of the other posters' suggestions regarding using the trustee's name and SSN does not work when the trustee is an entity rather than a person.)

All attempts to reach a human being at any of the telephone numbers provided by the IRS for assistance with EIN issues have failed - it's just an endless round of pre-recorded computerized menu selections.

So... Are all employers that are not sole proprietors precluded from using the IRS' online EIN application process to obtain EINs for their employer plans??

Responsible Party for plan - IRS page requires SSN and does not permit EIN.pdf

10 minutes ago, ERISAcpr said:

(Note that one of the other posters' suggestions regarding using the trustee's name and SSN does not work when the trustee is an entity rather than a person.)

Sure it does, the responsible party is still person even if the trustee is an entity.  They need to designate someone to be the responsible party, this is the person who will receive mail and notices etc...

Why EIN and SSN if you cant use an EIN?

From the SS-4 instructions (emphasis mine):

Lines 7a–b. Name of responsible party. Enter the full name (first name, middle initial, last name, if applicable) and SSN, ITIN, or EIN of the entity's responsible party. Responsible party defined. The “responsible party” is the person who ultimately owns or controls the entity or who exercises ultimate effective control over the entity. The person identified as the responsible party should have a level of control over, or entitlement to, the funds or assets in the entity that, as a practical matter, enables the person, directly or indirectly, to control, manage, or direct the entity and the disposition of its funds and assets.

Unless the applicant is a government entity, the responsible party must be an individual (i.e., a natural person), not an entity.

I’ve heard from some clients that some businesspeople believe the IRS would, if the IRS thinks something is due from the retirement plan’s trust, use the “responsible party” information to pursue that human.  Based on this, no one wants his or her name and Social Security Number on an SS-4 application.

ERISAcpr, if an applicant avoids the website system, and on the paper form fills-in for the “responsible party” information a corporation’s or other non-natural person’s name and Employer Identification Number, will the IRS process it and issue the retirement plan trust’s identifying number?

16 hours ago, Fiduciary Guidance Counsel said:

I’ve heard from some clients that some businesspeople believe the IRS would, if the IRS thinks something is due from the retirement plan’s trust, use the “responsible party” information to pursue that human.  Based on this, no one wants his or her name and Social Security Number on an SS-4 application

Believing it is one thing but whether it is true or not is another.  I'd bet it is just some IRS logic that none of us understands and I believe it is harmless.  The instructions are pretty clear that they want someone's SSN...we've been doing it that way since forever and will continue to do so.

Even if Bird is right and furnishing the information is harmless, I lack a good way to prove that beliefs about how the IRS might use the information are mistaken.  So, my question remains:

If an applicant avoids the website system, and on the paper form fills-in for the “responsible party” information a corporation’s or other non-natural person’s name and Employer Identification Number, will the IRS process it and issue the retirement plan trust’s identifying number?

1 hour ago, Fiduciary Guidance Counsel said:

Even if Bird is right and furnishing the information is harmless, I lack a good way to prove that beliefs about how the IRS might use the information are mistaken.  So, my question remains:

 

If an applicant avoids the website system, and on the paper form fills-in for the “responsible party” information a corporation’s or other non-natural person’s name and Employer Identification Number, will the IRS process it and issue the retirement plan trust’s identifying number?

I haven't done a paper submission in years, but I would assume they would not approve it since the instructions are clear that is has to be a person unless its government entity.

If one attempts to input an entity's name and EIN in the online EIN application now, the website immediately displays an error message because it can't validate the EIN against its individual taxpayer database. I've entered my own SSN to double check - it will validate me and my SSN, so it's definitely looking at the individual taxpayer database.

The thing is, I have hard copies of screen prints of SS-4 applications processed via the online EIN application for clients over the years, and the website definitely used to permit the entry of an entity name and EIN.

The caption for Line 7b on the current Form SS-4 is "SSN, ITIN or EIN" - which implies that an EIN is a permissible entry for Line 7b.

The current instructions state "Lines 7a-b: Name of responsible party. Enter the full name (first name, middle initial, last name (if applicable) and SSN, ITIN, or EIN of the entity's responsible party."

Note the parenthetical "(if applicable)" with respect to entering the first name, middle initial, and last name. Note as well the explicit reference to an EIN.

The instructions go on to state: "Responsible party defined. The “responsible party” is the person who ultimately owns or controls the entity or who exercises ultimate effective control over the entity. The person identified as the responsible party should have a level of control over, or entitlement to, the funds or assets in the entity that, as a practical matter, enables the person, directly or indirectly, to control, manage, or direct the entity and the disposition of its funds and assets. Unless the applicant is a government entity, the responsible party must be an individual (i.e., a natural person), not an entity."

That last bolded sentence in the definition makes no sense when the entity applying for the EIN is an employer plan. By definition, it's the employer - as plan sponsor - who acts to establish an employer-sponsored retirement plan, and not an employee or officer of the plan sponsor. Moreover, looking at the rest of the definition, the employer clearly is the "person" who "controls" the plan and who "exercises effective control over" the plan. Therefore it is the plan sponsor who is the "responsible party" - and the appropriate "person" - albeit a legal person, rather than a natural person - to be listed as the "responsible party."

Consider the implications with respect to applying for an EIN for a plan committee that is designated by the terms of an employer plan as the plan administrator. Other message threads on this site discuss the Form 5500's requirement that a plan administrator that is not the plan sponsor must have its own EIN and report it on Form 5500. Many plans designate a committee as the plan administrator, and, as a result, many plan committees have obtained EINs over the past several years for Form 5500 reporting purposes. It's the plan that designates the committee as plan administrator, and the plan generally will reference the board of directors of the employer as the entity that selects of designates the members of the plan committee. So who is the "responsible party" here for purposes of completing a Form SS-4 to obtain an EIN for the plan committee? The IRS will tell you it is the employer! I know this because an IRS representative told me this when I assisted a plan committee with obtaining an EIN several years ago, and I have a screen print of the online data entry - completed online while talking to that same IRS representative on the phone - showing the name of the employer and its EIN as the information entered for Lines 7a and 7b.

So... in a plan committee scenario, given the definition of "responsible party" in the instructions and the online EIN application's restriction on entering an EIN, whose SSN should be entered as the "responsible party" for the plan committee? Hmmm....

IRS Form SS-4 Instructions - 12-2017.pdf IRS Form SS-4 - 12-2017.pdf